Dancing Through Darkness: Dr. Edith Eva Eger’s Journey from Auschwitz to Inspiration

A podcast interview with Dr. Edith Eva Eger and Jordan Engle discussing The Ballerina of Auschwitz: Young Adult Edition of The Choice on The Growing Readers Podcast, a production of The Children’s Book Review.

Join Holocaust survivor and renowned psychologist Dr. Edith Eger, along with her grandson Jordan Engle, to discuss Dr. Eger’s young adult memoir, The Ballerina of Auschwitz.

In this powerful episode, Dr. Eger shares her experiences during World War II, her survival in Auschwitz, and the life lessons that have shaped her approach to psychology and healing.

Discover how hope, resilience, and the power of choice can overcome even the darkest circumstances. This inspiring conversation offers profound wisdom for listeners of all ages, exploring themes of forgiveness, inner strength, and the triumph of the human spirit.

Listen now to gain invaluable insights into history, psychology, and the enduring power of hope.

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Bianca Schulze: Perfect. Well, hello Dr. Edie. This is such an honor to have you on The Growing Readers Podcast. So I just want to begin with a big welcome.

Dr. Edith Eva Eger: Thank you. Thank you for having me. And I hope to give people some ways that are going to enjoy life as I do. At 97 is my birthday, September 29, so life is really full. It’s the way you look at it and what you do with it.

Bianca Schulze: Absolutely. And you also brought a special guest with you today. We have your grandson, Jordan Engle. So let’s just welcome Jordan.

Dr. Edith Eva Eger: Jordan is a brilliant young man and very existential. And he is very modest. I’m very modest about it, but he always has been a brilliant little boy. When I bought him those trains in Stuttgart where they make those trains, you know…

Jordan Engle: It’s… I… I have to say it’s one of the things when I was… She bought me these trains when I was maybe eight or nine years old. And they are the LGB, large scale trains. They are stunning. And she spent, her and Baila spent a lot of money and every year they would add another car or, and then the, the highlight was the dining car where the lights came on and the inside and all this stuff. But what’s, what’s really powerful to me, Edie, and I hope I’ve told you this is, it’s such an amazing sign of forgiveness that you bought German trains. Drove a Mercedes. So it’s that sign that they, instead of holding on to the past and the anger.

Dr. Edith Eva Eger: Actually we bought the Mercedes from a rabbi who was in the US army and he is the one who was selling it because it is discounted for the military. And it was a rabbi…

I think it’s very good for us to talk about being very good role models because words can be cheap.

Bianca Schulze: Yes, absolutely. So there’s a question I love to ask everybody that comes on the show, and it’s what is one thing that you do every day in your day-to-day practices that you think might either surprise people or help them to feel inspired by you?

Dr. Edith Eva Eger: Well, people look at the world the way they are. You know, if they’re pessimistic, they may tell you, you are very beautiful, but you’re a little pimply, and you have more weight than you should. You know, it’s just. Yes, but I change the but to an and. Yes. And furthermore, change is synonymous with growth. If you don’t change, you don’t grow.

Bianca Schulze: Absolutely.

Jordan Engle: Edie, you say self-love is self-care.

Dr. Edith Eva Eger: And it’s not narcissistic. Yes, we talk about that greatly. And, you know, when you are in a situation like Auschwitz, we were totally separated. And when I asked the woman who interviewed me, who was also a prisoner from Poland, and she was there from ’41, and I came in ’44. So she kind of took out her anger on me. But I asked her, when will I see my mother? And she pointed at the chimney. She said, she’s burning there. You better talk about her in past tense. And my sister yelled that the spirit never dies. The spirit never dies. And that’s how I remember entering Auschwitz.

Bianca Schulze: It’s just so incredible that you have shared your story, because the things that we can learn from your experience are just such a gift. And I know that your sister, like your relationship with your sister Magda, and may her memory be a blessing. She played a crucial role in your survival. So will you elaborate on the power of sisterhood and the connection that you have with family in overcoming trauma?

Dr. Edith Eva Eger: You know, we were completely nude, and my sister asked me, how do I look? It’s a real Hungarian woman’s question. How do I look? Paying a great deal of attention to the externals. So instead of telling her the way she looked, I remember. I didn’t lie. I didn’t make it up. She does have. She did have beautiful eyes. I know mine is green, but hers was really blue. I don’t know whether our grandmother did something with someone because she also had blonde hair and I wouldn’t know. And furthermore, I don’t care. I am here now and I’m gonna be 97 on September 29. And I ask people to celebrate every moment because I can only touch you now.

Don’t procrastinate. Don’t be a perfectionist, because you have to do it just right. Then you’re never going to really make it. Well in life, because we’re human, we make mistakes. It’s okay to flunk Spanish, which you hate in the first place. I think it’s important for us to be as honest as we can, especially with ourselves.

Bianca Schulze: Yes. Well, before I ask my next question, I want to read a quote from the book. And it’s “cooperation is the name of the game. To survive is to transcend your own needs and commit yourself to someone or something outside yourself. For me, that someone is Magda. That something is the hope that I will see Eric again tomorrow when I am free.” And so your book touches on the theme of first love with Eric. So will you talk about how such a tender experience in, I guess, the context of the horrors of the Holocaust guided you to hope? How did that first love help guide you towards hope?

Dr. Edith Eva Eger: Well, people tell me, I believe, I believe, I believe. It’s not about what you believe, it’s the faith. How do you spell faith? F-A-I-T-H. Faith. You know, I have faith that we have a lovely part within us and Mother Teresa within us, and so is Hitler. You know, there was a guy living in LA many, many years ago who sat on an exam and Hitler was next to him. And this guy passed the exam and Hitler didn’t. And he always felt that if Hitler would have won, maybe he wouldn’t have ever become a Hitler. But, you know, we surmise and figure things. And this I could have… Yes, yes. My mother had to just walk out from our home and we would have been hidden in Hungary. It was all arranged. And then she didn’t do it.

Jordan Engle: You talk in the book a lot, Edie, about your regret with Eric, that you… If you… Eric wanted to go to Palestine and he was trying to convince you to go, but you weren’t ready to leave. And ultimately that was a… Was a decision that you had to make in that moment with, with the wisdom that you had, but to live with what you, what that experience led to was something that was a challenge for you in your life. And that that character of Eric for you meant in your survival so much. And do you think without Eric, you would have made it through Auschwitz?

Dr. Edith Eva Eger: Yeah. I don’t… I think dependency can breed depression. Don’t depend so much on other people. Do what you can do the way you can do it, and give yourself a grade on it. And, you know, be careful that you’re kind to you. So if I want to say something, when I babysit with friends and also with my children, I always ask myself, is it kind? Is it necessary? And I think it’s very good to have you and listen to yourself dialogue. If it’s not kind, don’t say it.

Bianca Schulze: Yes. I think what you just touched on is the title of this young adult edition of the choice is the ballerina of Auschwitz. And so when you say, it’s almost like you have to find things within yourself. And so for you, you had your passion for dance and gymnastics, and, I mean, you could have been on the Olympic team for Hungary. And so do you want to share about the… How your love for movement and physical expression helped you during your darkest times in Auschwitz.

Dr. Edith Eva Eger: When my trainer told me that I was able to go to the Olympics because I’m a Jew, immediately I told her, I’m not a Jew. All you had to do is go… When you have a child born, you go to the city hall and you sign the name of the child and a religion next to it so you could say whatever you did. But those were the facts. So I did pray for the guards because I knew that they were brainwashed. I saw the word that I say a lot of the time is trigger. I talk about the time when I had in the steakhouse, Ruth, many years…

Jordan Engle: Ruth’s Chris Steakhouse. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was the… When you went to get this… The name of the steakhouse is Ruth’s Chris Steakhouse.

Dr. Edith Eva Eger: It was Ruth’s Steakhouse.

Jordan Engel: Yeah.

Dr. Edith Eva Eger: Yes. And that triggered the time when children were spitting at us and calling us dirty Jews and bad things. We were compared to any animals. I felt so sorry for the children that they were brainwashed. So what happens? I end up working in a military hospital and a German family comes in and the little girl jumps in my lap and calls me Oma. So you see, there is good in the world, there is kindness in the world, and of course, there is a part in us that hopefully can be a good parent. To you. So there are two questions. One is, when did your childhood end? A second question. Would you like to be married to you?

Bianca Schulze: Those are great questions. I feel like… I feel like we should all be asking those. You’re 100% correct, and I want to know, and maybe, Jordan, this is something for you. Have you witnessed your grandmother’s passion for dance? Did you get to experience seeing her dance and how it lights her up? Because when we read in the ballerina of Auschwitz, and for any adults that have read the choice, we just know how much it was dance and movement, that she was able to find light when she was surrounded by so much darkness.

Jordan Engle: Yeah. Edie famously does a high kick up until maybe six months ago. And even now, if we… If we asked her to do it, she would do it. And it’s one of those things. Edie has a… A body and a mind that are very connected, and it’s been that kind of a relationship. You just watch the way that she walks onto a stage and she moves like a dancer. And there’s a wonderful story that she dated this very sweet man named Gene. And Gene Cook was the most sort of put together… I never saw him without a jacket and a tie, no matter how hot or what the event, or… Southern gentleman. Southern gentleman with the jacket and the tie. And Edie and Gene met dancing, and she and Gene would go dancing on Sundays, and it was their favorite way to connect and to have those shared moments. And though Gene would always ask, is it a rumba or a samba?

Dr. Edith Eva Eger: You know, all he did was two to the right…or the rumba or whatever it was, because he waited for a name. You know, he had to have a…

Jordan Engle: Name, but he would do the same dance regardless of what it was called.

Dr. Edith Eva Eger: Same thing. It didn’t matter. Two to the right, two to the left. Turn around and ask. And that was the routine. I missed that man. I cried buckets when we buried him at the church, the Presbyterian and Evangelical. I don’t know how they combine… Wonderful people and do everything we can to have a world that you can be you and I can be I. But obviously, together we’re much stronger. And that I experienced, because I know one girl told us, we’re going to be liberated by Christmas. And Christmas came and went, and she died the next day. So don’t be rigid. It’s better to be flexible because it may not happen exactly the way you expected. When you get married… You really love everything about that person, even his bad breath. I don’t know, but I think it’s very good to go to a lawyer, and now it’s not so sexy, but to know that after that, you don’t have to talk about money.

Jordan Engle: Edie, you talked about flexibility. And I think one of the things that is a through line from what you teach us about our existence is to become flexible, to use our bodies to dance through challenging moments, rather than to become rigid and fight against it. And one… We were having a podcast, Edie and I, and it came up that the question was something along the lines of, you know, you must have really had to fight to survive at Auschwitz. And Edie said something along the lines of, no, I didn’t fight, I danced. And that was a real epiphany for me about the mentality of a survivor is not always to fight against what’s challenging you, but to learn how to flow and be flexible. And ultimately, as Edie showed, was to dance through those moments, to dance through the challenge. And when you do that and you have that mentality, it’s more about finding the way through rather than trying to compete against it or to fight against it. And obviously, those who fought in Auschwitz couldn’t make it through.

Dr. Edith Eva Eger: If you come to my office, you see there are two things. One is a beautiful egg, and the other one is flying. So that’s what happens when you get pregnant. You’re going to have a baby. And I don’t know whether you prepared for it or not, but the baby is very helpless, and it’s up to us to really make up our minds to a very committed, lovely marriage. Because the best thing for children is a happy family.

Bianca Schulze: Yes, absolutely. And I first came across your work, 2020. So I think The Choice had been out for two years, and I was watching Super Soul Sunday with Oprah, and you said something, I’m a mom of three children, and you said something that really resonated with me, and it’s, our children don’t do what we say. They do what we see.

Dr. Edith Eva Eger: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. It’s very important not to raise your voice. And you say, no, I’m not angry. You sound very angry.

Bianca Schulze: Yes.

Dr. Edith Eva Eger: And a feeling is a feeling. There is no right feeling or wrong feeling. Is when I really feel heard. When someone starts a sentence in English, you… You are this, you are that. You are ready to lose weight, you know. Yes, but I’d like to change that. Yes. And furthermore. So I’m not a shrink, I’m a stretch.

Bianca Schulze: Yes.

Dr. Edith Eva Eger: What stretches your comfort zone.

Bianca Schulze: Yeah, I think that’s important. That goes back to what Jordan just emphasizes, the flexibility too. But you used the word anger. And I would love to just talk about anger for a moment. And you already just mentioned as well that there was this moment where you and Magda were spat on and horrible things were said to you about being Jewish. And I just, when I first read the choice, and I think it was the most important book for me that I’ve ever read. And I thought to myself, if everybody in the world read this book, they would see that hate and war are not the answer. But we still have hate and we still have war. Doctor Edie and I feel angry, and I feel a deep disappointment. And I try to… The side I want to take is the side of humanity, and I hold on to hope. So with anger, it’s like, I don’t want to feel the anger, but it’s there. I can’t deny it. And so, like, how do we take the lessons that you work and that you learned and pass that on to these new readers that are going to pick up the ballerina of Auschwitz?

Dr. Edith Eva Eger: Don’t label people. You don’t have to like the behavior. And that can be changed, but that doesn’t mean that that person is really for life. We were already labeled. No, we can change. Change is synonymous with growth. I think it was good for me in Auschwitz to learn and not to hate, because our energy was so low as it was, and we didn’t know whether 04:00 in the morning, whether we going to ever go back to the barracks or we may end up in a gas chamber. We didn’t know anything. So I tell you, Julie, the other day, I did that with a woman, left her, and I told her, next, you know, it’s not evolving, but evolving. And I think that’s what life is all about, that you and I talk to you now and letting you know what are you holding on to and what are you willing gets a very good work, willing to let go of. I give up the need for other people’s approval. That is known by me because I gave a lecture at the University of Texas and somebody went out and then they came back. But by the time I was already on a guillotine, I did it to me. But then a couple of years later, I was the one who talked about the psychology of what you learn about human sexuality. And it just says a great deal how mother says, by the way, did you buy me ten packs today? I asked you. I know that in front of the children there is a conversation going on. It is just natural.

Bianca Schulze: Absolutely.

Jordan Engle: Bianca, I had this interesting thought as you were talking, Edie. You said… First you said you believed that people have the ability to change, including, from your perspective, Nazis, right? You believe that they could still become a different version of themselves. But you also said that you have to give up the need for other people’s approval. And then you said the issue is that the guards were brainwashed. And how do you become brainwashed? Because you care what other people think about you. And therefore, you listen to them and take what they will say as true and not listen to your inner voice. And then you can go and start doing horrible things because somebody… You wanted to look good to somebody else, you cared what they thought about you. And so maybe the lesson that the ballerina of Auschwitz can relay is that we need to listen to our inner voice and not listen to the kid who says, oh, yeah, yeah, those guys are bad. Don’t like those ones. Or somebody who’s in the popular crowd or somebody that pushes you into being different than what you believe is right in your heart. And then you become susceptible to going down that path, which is ultimately what happened to a huge group of people in Germany in the 1930s. But what we know is that those were just people. People who were born good people, who had the opportunity to live healthy, happy lives. But because of caring so deeply what other people thought of them, they went down this path where they thought you were the enemy.

Dr. Edith Eva Eger: You know, I was very manipulative because I asked my mother for some candy on the train, and she said, we have to wait until we get there, and I will. That wasn’t too good for me. I said, well, if you don’t, I’m gonna say that word, you know, bad word. So the guy got what I wanted. My mother gave it to me because she didn’t want people to think of her, that she’s not a good mother. So we do seek other people’s approval, but we have to really set the line. How far do I go that I give up my true self?

Bianca Schulze: Yeah, absolutely. Would it be okay if, to sort of round up our conversation, I read a paragraph from the epilogue? Do you mind if I read a paragraph?

Dr. Edith Eva Eger: Of course.

Bianca Schulze: Thank you.

So you said, “and to the vast campus of death that consumed my parents and so very many others, to the classroom of horror that still had something sacred to teach me about how to live. That I was victimized, but I’m not a victim. That I was hurt but not broken. That the soul never dies. That meaning and purpose can come from deep in the heart of what hurts us the most. I utter my final words, goodbye, I say and thank you. Thank you for the life and for the ability to finally accept the life that is. We can’t ever change what’s happened to us. We can’t alter the past or control… We can’t alter the past or control what’s coming around the next corner. But we can choose how we live now. We can choose whom and how to love. We can choose. We can always choose to be free.”

Dr. Edith Eva Eger: Many, many years ago, I was invited to speak at the Ritz in London. And one of the members told me that the mother not seeing the children anymore because her mother didn’t really care for her when she was 16. And the man said to me, I know that there is nothing you can do, but if you would be so kind, I said, send her over. So this is very good to learn that you pick up where I, a person is. And I asked, when is your mother buried? And I tried to say things with a British accent, and she would say, at the cemetery, not cemetery, not, not, you know, I’m not in America. I’m in London. So we went to the cemetery and took off her shoes and made contact with the mother. And you know what? She’s okay. She’s giving her permission not to be anything but her true self and to be able to look at the children by their age, because the ten year old child will not give you words like the cognitive dissonance. They don’t know that language.

Bianca Schulze: Well, Doctor Edie, I’m wondering if there was just one most important point that you would hope that young readers would take away from reading the ballerina of Auschwitz. What? What do you want that one thing to be?

Jordan Engle: What would be the one hope, Edie, that you would want the reader of? What would you want them to take away from it?

Dr. Edith Eva Eger: Not to ever give up hope. If you cannot get in the front door, you can try the side window or go to the chimney, I don’t know what. But not to procrastinate, because that will make you think about it tomorrow. Okay, I’ll think about it tomorrow. That’s in a movie, right?

Jordan Engle: Not to give up hope. What a beautiful message.

Dr. Edith Eva Eger: It’s temporary. And I can survive it.

Bianca Schulze: Yes. Temporary. Well, doctor Edie, thank you so much for writing your memoir, for sharing this powerful story. Your insights are a complete gift to all of us. And The Ballerina of Auschwitz reminds us of the strength of the human spirit and the power of hope, even in the darkest times. And as one of our few remaining Holocaust survivors sharing your firsthand account, your message to future generations is invaluable. You’ve shown us that even in unimaginable circumstances, we always have a choice in how we respond. So thank you so much for sharing your story and for reminding us of the power of choice and love and hope. And just a huge thank you to both you and Jordan for honoring us with your time today. I appreciate it so much.

Dr. Edith Eva Eger: I do appreciate your interviewing me. You’re a great interviewer, and I hope I’ll give you a big, big hug when you are here in my neck of the woods. And maybe we can have a Hungarian goulash together.

Bianca Schulze: That sounds absolutely amazing. Thank you.

Dr. Edith Eva Eger: Thank you.

About the Book

Publisher’s Synopsis: In this young adult edition of the bestselling, award-winning memoir The Choice, Holocaust survivor and renowned psychologist Dr. Edith Eger shares her harrowing experiences and gives readers the gift of hope and strength.

Edie is a talented dancer and a skilled gymnast with hopes of making the Olympic team. Between her rigorous training and her struggle to find her place in a family where she’s the daughter “with brains but no looks,” Edie’s too busy to dwell on the state of the world. But life in Hungary in 1943 is dangerous for a Jewish girl.

Just as Edie falls in love for the first time, Europe collapses into war, and Edie’s family is forced onto a train bound for the Auschwitz concentration camp. Even in those darkest of moments, Edie’s beloved, Eric, kindles hope. “I’ll never forget your eyes,” he tells her through the slats of the cattle car. Auschwitz is horrifying beyond belief, yet through starvation and unthinkable terrors, dreams of Eric sustain Edie. Against all odds, Edie and her sister Magda survive, thanks to their sisterhood and sheer grit.

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Show Notes

Edith Eger is an eminent psychologist and one of the few remaining Holocaust survivors old enough to remember life in the camps. A colleague of Viktor Frankl, Dr. Edith Eger has worked with veterans, military personnel, and victims of physical and mental trauma. She lives in La Jolla, California, and is the author of the bestselling and award-winning books The Choice and The Gift.

Thank you for listening to the Growing Readers Podcast episode Dancing Through Darkness: Dr. Edith Eva Eger’s Journey from Auschwitz to Inspiration. For the latest episodes from The Growing Readers Podcast, Subscribe or Follow Now.