A podcast interview with Dan Gemeinhart on The Growing Readers Podcast, a production of The Children’s Book Review.
In this insightful interview, acclaimed middle-grade author Dan Gemeinhart discusses his highly anticipated standalone companion novel Coyote Lost and Found, the follow-up to his beloved bestseller The Remarkable Journey of Coyote Sunrise.
The #1 New York Times-bestselling author also offers a glimpse into his creative process, drawing inspiration from his lifelong love of reading. Additionally, Gemeinhart discusses his upcoming picture book Once Upon a Friend and the distinct approaches required for crafting middle-grade novels versus picture books.
With his signature blend of heart, humor, and authenticity, Gemeinhart provides a fascinating behind-the-scenes look at his acclaimed body of work and the powerful messages he aims to impart to young readers. This episode is a must-listen for fans of Gemeinhart’s beloved stories as well as anyone interested in the craft of writing impactful children’s literature.
Dan Gemeinhart Talks About:
- His writing process and influences as an author of middle grade novels
- The evolution of the relationship between the main character Coyote and her father Rodeo across the two books
- The themes of grief, healing, and finding one’s place in the world that are central to the narratives
- Dan’s upcoming picture book Once Upon a Friend and the differences between writing middle grade novels versus picture books
- The potential for the first Coyote book to be adapted into a film
Listen to the Interview
Read the Transcription
Bianca Schulze
Hi, Dan. Welcome back to The Growing Readers Podcast.
Dan Gemeinhart
Hello. Thanks for having me. I’m excited to be here.
Bianca Schulze
Well, you’re here today to talk about your beautiful Coyote Lost and Found, the standalone companion novel to one of my all-time favorite books, The Remarkable Journey of Coyote Sunrise. But I need to start by asking you some very important questions to see if I can allow you onto the podcast bus. I hope that’s okay.
Dan Gemeinhart
It is. Okay.
Bianca Schulze
All right. Well, I’m sure you’ve had these questions before, so I think you’re going to have answers ready for me. What is your favorite book?
Dan Gemeinhart
It’s the easiest question or the hardest question because I am such a book lover and such a book nerd and I still read two or three books a week and have my whole life. And so I don’t have one book or, I mean, one favorite or ten favorites or 100 favorites. I’ve got a million favorites. Some of the ones that I give shout-outs to in Coyote Sunrise are my favorites, which is why they’re in there, like The One and Only Ivan and Walk Two Moons and Esperanza Rising and Ghost by Jason Reynolds.
But I love Hatchet by Gary Paulson and Out of My Mind by Sharon Draper. And I mean, they’re just, I can go on and on and on about all of my favorite books. Those are some of the ones that just popped into my head, but I’ve got, I mean, hundreds more literally.
Bianca Schulze
That is like honestly the perfect answer for a true book lover. It’s so impossible to answer that question with just one book. So, I love that response. All right, next question. What is your favorite place in the world?
Dan Gemeinhart
Well, the cheesy cop-out answer is wherever my family is, which is true, but also, I mean, come on. So my favorite place in the world, probably. I love the outdoors and I love backpacking and hiking. And I live in north-central Washington State. Really special place up in the mountains called the Enchantments, which is this group of, uh, these lakes way up above the tree line. And you have to have a special permit to go there because it’s really fragile, but it’s just beautiful. And there’s waterfalls and creeks and mountain goats scampering around that have no fear because there’s no predators. And it’s just this magical place. So The Enchantments in the Alpine Lakes wilderness area in the north Cascades is my favorite place.
Bianca Schulze
Okay, I think I’ve just written that down because it sounds so beautiful. All right. And then I have to ask this question for Coyote, what is your favorite sandwich?
Dan Gemeinhart
I kind of have two, and I was able to give both of them shout-outs in my book. So my. Probably my number one favorite is just the classic BLT, which is Coyote’s favorite sandwich, although I like to add avocado. So it’s a blat, bacon, lettuce, avocado, tomato. I think that’s a perfect sandwich. But my close second, almost tied, is a Reuben, which I give a shout-out to in the new book Coyote Lost and Found.
Bianca Schulze
Yes, you do. All right, well, I have to ask you about the blat, because I love a good blot, but I love mine on focaccia bread. What kind of bread do you like it on?
Dan Gemeinhart
You know, I would like either a sourdough or just a good whole wheat bread.
Bianca Schulze
Yeah, there you go. That’s kind of classic. So. All right, well, I think you’re officially allowed on the podcast bus now. So, one more question. What song would you pick to start our conversation road trip?
Dan Gemeinhart
Ooh. How about, you know, I love Langhorne Slim. He’s a singer-songwriter, and he’s gotten a shout-out in both of these books as well. So I could go with almost anything by him, I guess. I would say. You like the rooms or the house of my soul. It’s the same song. It’s got kind of a subtitle, and that’s just a great song that I would probably start us off with.
Bianca Schulze
Okay, perfect. And I’m just going to apologize to listeners that I do not have permission to play that song, but let’s just pretend it’s playing now. All right, well, I’d love to take a quick second to let listeners know that you and I had a great chat back in 2022, which doesn’t actually feel that long ago, about The Midnight Children. And so congratulations, by the way, because that story reached number one New York Times bestseller status. So well done.
Dan Gemeinhart
Thank you very much.
Bianca Schulze
But you talked a lot about what drives you in writing for kids and your writing process. So I really. I don’t want to like, repeat questions here. So, I really want listeners to go back and listen to that episode because you had so many amazing, insightful responses. So, everybody go back. It’s 2022. It’s a conversation with Dan about the midnight children, and I really don’t think you should miss it if you haven’t listened. But as I just. I just kind of want to go a little bit into your. Just your overall career. I mean, you’re in, like, a decade now of writing, so what or who do you think has influenced your approach and outlook on your craft the most?
Dan Gemeinhart
Oh, wow. Interesting question. Yeah. Boy, the decade sure flies by, doesn’t it? It sure does. Yeah. I mean, I was a teacher for years and, like, 14 years, and I still think of myself as a teacher. And this is kind of like my weird little second act here. So I still feel very new to me. It’s a fresh new chapter in my life, but it’s been going for a while now. It’s a long chapter, I guess, you know who had the most influence on my craft?
I don’t like to always give cop out answers, but just, like, my favorite book, like, man, I’ve been such a reader since as long as I can remember. From kindergarten, I just loved books. And I was one of those kids who would go to the library in the summers, the public library, and get a stack of books and read, like, a book a day. That was just how I spent my summers. And it’s still kind of do that. And so there’s. There’s not, like, one author, like, oh, I read this book or this author, and that changed everything. And that’s when I knew I wanted to be an author. I mean, that happened, but it happened, like, hundreds of times with so many great books. And so I don’t think there is one that I could put my finger on.
I mean, I loved Hatchet as a kid, like so many kids did. That was an amazing book by Gary Paulson. But also in fifth grade, my teacher did a read-aloud of Roll of Thunder, Hear My Cry by Mildred C. Taylor. And that was amazing. That showed me how powerful a book can be and not just be a fun story or entertaining, but it can, like, really teach you things about other human experiences in the world. And so that, you know, added a layer to my writing, but then seeing, like, the emotion, like, you know when.
When you’re a kid and you read Where the Red Fern Grows and you’re crying like a baby. Like, wow. Books aren’t just informative or educational or entertaining. They can also, like, move you so deeply. I mean, like, break your heart or make you laugh out loud. And so all of those stories over the last, we’ll just say, a few decades of me being a reader have added up to the, I guess, the inspiration.
Like, and still to this day, I’ll read a great book, and I’ll say, holy cow, like, look at what this author did. Look at all these things that I’m feeling. Look how either inspired or. Or sad or joyful I feel just from these words on a page that this author wrote. I want to. I want to do that. I want to write a book. Maybe that could make someone feel something. And so it’s an ongoing thing, this inspiration. It’s not a past tense, and it wasn’t a one-time thing. It’s just being a lifelong reader and wanting to be a part of that world, basically.
Bianca Schulze
Well, I have to tell you, and I’m not diving into the coyote stories just yet, but this latest one, I literally cried four separate times. So just. Well done that you did it. You moved. Not just me. I know you’ve made so many other people feel moved by this character and the other characters in the Coyote stories. So I think the way you answered that question just makes sense as to how I read your writing.
Dan Gemeinhart
Thank you very much.
Bianca Schulze
Yeah, you’re welcome. And then in terms of your approach to writing and your process, are there any sort of ways that you went about getting your story out that you’ve kind of ditched now and taken on new methods? How has the way you approach your writing changed over the decades?
Dan Gemeinhart
Oh, that’s a really interesting question. Well, you know, it hasn’t gotten any easier. And, you know, every writer I talk to says the same thing. And so now I’m apparently almost a decade in, and I’m working on, you know, my 8th book or whatever, and it’s every single time it’s a little overwhelming and a little daunting, and every single time I’m pulling my hair out, and every single time I’m thinking, that’s it, I’m a failure. This is terrible. No one’s gonna. Every book I’ve ever written, like, I— It’s just really hard, at least for me, to sit down and try to put a story together and to feel like you’re hopefully getting it right. And so it’s not any easier.
But in some respects, some parts begin like, I’m better now at catching my mistakes before I make them. And so my rough drafts are still incredibly rough, and I still do lots of revising and rewriting and editing. That’s a huge part of the process, an incredibly important part of the process. But I used to make a lot of big mistakes constantly and not realize it until months or weeks or chapters later or on the third draft. And now I’m somewhat better at saying, oh, no, that’s a dead end, or no, that’s not developed enough, this is going too fast, or this is going too slow. Just because you do something enough and you start to get not so much knowledge or skill, but just kind of a feel for it.
And so that’s made my process a little better and a little less painful is, to see those things as they come and see some of the mistakes before I commit them to paper. But as far as the process, I think it’s pretty much the same. I’m not an outliner. I’m a going-to-make-it-up-as-I-go author for the most part. I often have some idea of some things that might happen, but I’m flexible and I get surprised every time. And a lot of times, things don’t turn out like I think they will, but, yeah.
And so that’s still much, pretty much the same, even though I would love to be an outliner, and every time I think I’m going to do that because wouldn’t it be easier if I knew what was going to happen instead of just making it up and my brain just won’t do it, I put part one on the outline and I write what happens first, and then I put number two, and then I stop because my brain says, how could I possibly know what happens next? You haven’t written the story yet, so that’s pretty much the same. But, yeah, it’s a kind of a messy process every time. But at the end of the day or at the end of the book, it’s always worth it.
Bianca Schulze
Absolutely. All right, well, now we’re going to go into— I mean, I don’t know who my absolute favorite book character is, but Coyote is definitely one of my all-time favorite book characters. So Coyote Luston found, as I said up front, it’s the highly anticipated follow-up to the beloved Coyote sunrise. So what drew you back into Coyote and Rodeo’s world, and how did you navigate the pressure of writing about such beloved characters again while ensuring you got the story just right?
Dan Gemeinhart
Yeah. So I did approach it with some trepidation, like you said, because if you have a book that some people read and some people liked, you, really, if you’re going to write a next chapter in that character’s life, you don’t want it to be at all a disappointment and you don’t want anyone who liked the first book or loved the first book to say, oh, well, that was lame, you just don’t want to do that. And so I, I really, really put my heart and soul into it.
And why did I do it? Well, really, a couple of reasons. One, first and foremost, I just really love Coyote. Like, as a person, as a character in a lot of my books, a lot of my stories, a lot of the work I do is trying to figure out this character and what would they think and what would they feel, and who are they? And I do a lot of searching and brainstorming and throwing things away until I. Until I feel like I know what the kid might do or think or say. And both Coyote books, that never happened.
Like, I would open up the computer, and Coyote would start talking in my head, and I would write down what she said. And a lot of times, it didn’t even feel like writing. It just felt like I was dictating. She’s just. She’s. For some reason, she’s somewhere alive inside my head. And I never have to wonder what she would think or what she would feel because she’s always more than ready to tell me. I mean, she’s got a big personality and a big voice, and it’s just. I was super lucky. It’s one of those things I’m grateful for; that coyote just comes to life in my head. And so when I finished book one, I thought, man, I would love to spend more time with this kid. Like, I got to spend every day with her for a year. And then I finished the book, and then it was like my new best friend moved away and I didn’t get to see her anymore.
But, of course, you need a plot, a story. You can’t just have a character. And so that’s why there were so many years in between, because kind of the first part, I really wanted to not be a disappointment and to feel as important and as relevant and memorable as the first one, which is tricky because the first one’s a pretty big story with pretty big stuff going on. And so finally, though, I got this idea. The idea for Coyote Lost and Found. And then, I set aside what I was working on. I jumped right back into it, and Coyote started talking right off the bat on page one. And off I went. And so, yeah, it’s been. And it’s been a real joy to write Coyote again and to see how people have embraced her and embraced the books. It’s just really wonderful. And I’m super grateful for it.
Bianca Schulze
Well, I’m going to be honest: when I picked it up because I loved the first book so much, I was so nervous to actually, as a reader, to read the second one because I didn’t want you to let me down. And, of course, you absolutely did not let us down. I mean, it’s so true. That this is a standalone story and it stands alone at the same level as the first story. I mean, you really, you nailed it. So, just congratulations.
Dan Gemeinhart
Thank you.
Bianca Schulze
Your books are definitely known for their vibrant characters and pretty authentic voices. So how—I mean, you said Coyote just seems to be almost fully formed as a character. But how do you approach character development to just ensure that these characters feel relatable and engaging to your readers?
Dan Gemeinhart
Yeah, well, I mean, characters are the most important part of the story. And I say this when I do, like writers workshops with young writers or adult writers, is that that’s the engine of your story, that’s the heart of your story. The character is way more important than the plot because almost anything could happen in the plot. Does it matter if Coyote meets a goat in the first book or a sheep? No. It doesn’t matter if their breaks go out or not. Not really. What matters is what it means to the character, how the character feels about it, and what choices the character makes. That’s all that really matters.
And if your reader cares about your character, they’ll care about your story. If they don’t care about your character, they won’t care about your story, even if you have the coolest story in the whole world, and you’ve got this awesome plot with this amazing climax with a car chase and a gunfight. But if your readers don’t care whether your main character wins or loses, lives or dies, they’re not going to care about that car chase because they don’t care about who’s in the car. And so that’s what I spend most of my time thinking about. I don’t spend that much time thinking about the plot. Like, well, maybe this happens; let’s give it a shot.
But I do a lot of time, spent a lot of time and work thinking, is this right for the character? Is this what the character would do? Because once you start the story and you’ve got a character built who hopefully feels like a real person, it’s kind of out of your hands. As an author, I don’t get to decide what happens next. If it’s a good story and I’m doing my job right, the character decides what happens next. And I would hit that with Coyote sometimes.
A couple of times in the first book, I remember there’s the scene where her dad leaves her behind at a gas station. It’s kind of an early scene. It’s where she meets Salvador. And I really— I wrote that scene the first time as a kind of a funny scene. And she was like, oh, dad, I’m going to give him such a hard time for this, you know what? A flake. Because that’s kind of the relationship they have. But it just wouldn’t work.
And Coyote just kept, like, digging in her heels, and I could not make that scene work because she was saying no, like, yes, I’m brave, and I’m courageous. I’ve got the strong personality, but I’m still a kid. And I lost the rest of my family, and I’ve never been away from my dad. And it’s not fun or funny when all of a sudden I’m alone in the world with the one person I have is gone. And so then I had to rewrite that whole scene where it’s. It’s not funny or fun to her at all. And she doesn’t take it lightly, because think about that. She lost her sister, she lost her mom, and now she’s alone at a gas station, and she’s lost her dad. So she said, no, that’s not how it goes Author. This is how it goes.
They’re similar in the beginning of Coyote Lost and Found, so she— They’ve kind of settled down, her and Rodeo, they still have the bus, but they’re living in a house. And she’s going to school, which is something she really wanted to do. And I thought, oh, isn’t this going to be fun? And Coyote’s going to have some quirky friends, and we’re going to see her, you know, happy, finally living this life she thought she wanted to live. But the same thing happened. She was like, no, that’s not how this goes because, you know—
Coyote’s great. I love Coyote. She’s definitely kind of a weirdo. She’s not going to fit in, and she’s not going to lay low and slide under the radar. And so she is having problems in school, having problems making friends, having problems with the other kids, which I didn’t see coming. I didn’t want to have happened, but it wasn’t up to me. That’s just what Coyote told me was gonna happen. And so that’s, that’s what I try to do as a writer, is try to build these characters, make them feel alive, and then kind of honor them and follow their lead, because that way, the story will feel more real and more natural and more believable.
Bianca Schulze
Yeah, well, you kind of touched on a few things I want to explore further, and so I’m gonna go here first. I’ve definitely noticed themes of being friendless, managing loneliness, and fitting in. These themes come up a lot for your various characters. So, talk to me a little bit about those themes and how you incorporate them into your characters.
Dan Gemeinhart
Totally, especially the fitting in where do I belong? I mean, that is really one of the central themes, I think, of almost every middle grade novel by anybody because those are just the big questions that you deal with in those middle-grade years of your life, from the time you’re nine to 19 or whatever, when you’re not just your parents kid anymore, where you’re figuring out who you are and who you want to be and who you’re going to be and who your friends are and who your friends aren’t. And you really start creating yourself as a person in those adolescent years. I mean, it’s a hugely important time in your life.
And so kind of every middle grade book is about that, no matter what the genre or whatever. Usually, almost always at the center of it is a kid who’s trying to figure out who they are, who they want to be, where they belong. I just finished a great book on Beyond the Bright Sea by Lauren Wolk, and that is an entirely different story than any of my stories. But still, in a lot of ways, at the end of the day, that main character, Crow, who is a fantastic character, it’s really about her trying to figure out who she is and where she belongs and who she wants to be, even though it’s, you know, set in, whatever, 1910 on an island off Massachusetts. She’s asking the same questions and dealing with the same things as Coyote and as Ravani for Midnight Children and Joseph from Some Kind of Courage, and, yeah, Jonathan from Scar Island.
That’s just kind of what middle grade books are kind of all about, for the most part. Not always, but it’s such a universal, powerful theme. I mean, as far as the loneliness. Yeah, you know, I don’t know where that always comes from. And some of my characters are like that, maybe most of them. And I don’t know if that comes, like, my own childhood as a kid, we moved around a ton, and so I was always the new kid in school and the new kid in class. I was always leaving friends behind and hopefully trying to make new friends.
So, you know, trying to figure out where I fit in, feeling a little unmoored and lonely at times, and sometimes I didn’t fit in, and I. I would. There’s chunks of my life or places that I lived where I was kind of lonely and friendless and bullied and that wasn’t great. And so that’s, you know, somewhere inside of me, for sure. And maybe that subconsciously is coming out in these characters.
Um, but, you know, those are things that kids deal with. Not all kids. Some kids are, you know, really social. They’re great. They have lots of friends. They’ve got best friends, and they’re doing great. Thank goodness for those kids. Congratulations. But a lot of kids, you know, you’re dealing with those questions of identity and belonging, and it’s. It can be a really fun, exciting time in your life. It can really be also kind of a sad, scary, lonely time in your life.
Bianca Schulze
Yeah. And I also just love the way I think in life outside of these fictional characters. We end up creating friendships or allyships with people that we can connect to in a way that we see each other. We feel seen in that friendship. We may have had completely different backgrounds and completely different things going on, but you end up connecting with people because there’s something that you can see and honor in one another. And I often see that in your characters is that. I feel like what brings them together is that they honor something within each other. I don’t know if that makes sense.
Dan Gemeinhart
No, that makes a lot. I’ve never thought about it that way, but that makes a lot of sense. And I do that somewhat on purpose and somewhat not on purpose. Where. Yeah, we think, like, so in the first book, or actually the second one, same. When Coyote’s on the road and different people join their group. After answering those three questions, like, I try to think, like, what does each one of them bring to the table? How are they the same as Coyote? How are they different? Basically, what is she going to learn from them? Each one of them is just like in real life; every person you meet is kind of a reflection of yourself in some way, or a reflection of not yourself, like, a very different person. But they help you get some perspective, maybe, on your own life and your own circumstances.
And Coyote is certainly that way. When she meets Val and when she meets Salvador, those people. And then in this book, when she meets Wally and Doreen, those people are not just great people in their own right, which hopefully they are, and interesting characters in their own right, which hopefully they are. But they also give her some wisdom and perspective on what she herself is going through.
Bianca Schulze
Absolutely. And I would say that she also gives them a little piece of youth and energy that they’re seeking as well. You brought up Coyote and her dad just before Rodeo, so let’s talk about the relationship between them. I love their relationship. It’s not necessarily a traditional dad-and-daughter relationship. So, without any spoilers, if that’s possible, can you discuss the evolution of their relationship throughout the two books? And what aspects of their bond do you find most compelling to explore?
Dan Gemeinhart
Ooh, well, that’s a good question. Yeah. That is, that relationship is at the heart of certainly of the first book and the second one as well, the relationship between Coyote and her father, because it’s really, really complicated, and it’s, in a lot of respects, or at least a couple respects, dysfunctional. It’s not a great relationship in some ways, even though Coyote, I think, is a great person, and Rodeo is a pretty great person and he— He loves Coyote. No one could read either one of these books and not think palpably that Rodeo really loves Coyote. But is he always a good dad? Is he always what she needs him to be? And the answer, especially in the first book, is absolutely not.
In fact, in a lot of respects, even though he’s a great guy and he loves Coyote, he’s kind of a terrible dad because he’s really broken, and he is doing what he can more to take care of himself than to take care of her. And that’s what a lot of the first book about is her, you know, getting the courage and learning to advocate for herself and saying, I don’t think it’s my job anymore to take care of you. You’re the parent. Maybe you should take care of me, or maybe at least I should take care of myself. And so her advocating for herself and her own needs instead of just trying to protect him because, you know, spoiler alert, but not really a spoiler—
Five years ago, this tragedy happened to her and her dad where her mom and her two sisters were killed in a car accident. And he’s still completely broken by that. And so their relationship is complicated. And he also, in the first book not so much in the second one, but in the first book, he also basically plays the role of the villain. He’s not a villain. He’s not evil at all. But if a villain is just the opposing force, if the villain is what gets in your main character’s way in whatever they’re trying to achieve or pursue or whatever, that’s the role he plays because she needs to go home, and he will never allow that to happen because it’s too painful for him. And so he plays the role of the villain even though he’s not a villainous guy.
And so that was really complicated to suss all that out, to make him be kind of the villain, but not a villain, to make him be someone that we like and someone we can still root for and someone we can still want coyote it up with. If he’s a pure villain, then how do you end that book in a satisfying way? And how do you tell this new story in a satisfying way? So he’s got to be a great guy and a loving father who’s just a mess and who messes up a lot, and that holds through into this one. He’s doing much better in the second book, and he’s a much better father. But it is.
And I think that’s the most compelling part of the relationship is the way they try and sometimes fail to take care of each other. And no one could read these books and doubt it is their complete love for each other. Rodeo would do anything for a Coyote, and Coyote would do anything for Rodeo. Even though they’re both kind of a mess and their relationship is a mess, the love at the center of it is, like, undoubtable.
Bianca Schulze
Absolutely. All right, well, this is now the perfect time to talk about the level of grief and healing that’s central to the narrative of both books. So, talk to me about what it takes for you to tackle these heavy themes in a way that is accessible and meaningful for your middle grade audience and especially the kids who may be navigating their own experiences of loss and change.
Dan Gemeinhart
Yeah, and that’s a great question. Obviously a really important question because it’s not just a fun plot point that this terrible thing happened, or isn’t this a fun concept? Like, it’s heavy stuff, and it’s important stuff. It’s life stuff, and when you’re talking about real life stuff, so parents or families that are dealing with this stuff, it’s like sacred ground. And so I basically approach it as carefully and respectfully and thoughtfully and sensitively as I can. I think about those kinds of things all the time and think about different readers reading this.
So what if it’s being read by someone who did recently lose a parent or a parent who lost a child or whatever? So you don’t just write for yourself. You try to be cognizant and respectful of other, other readers and other readers’ experiences. And so it’s a lot of. Well, all of my writing, but especially that kind of stuff, is a lot of sitting there, not writing, of closing my eyes, and imagining the scene. Imagine the character, imagine the feelings, and try to thread that needle as right as I can and really put myself as much as I possibly can.
I’ve never suffered a loss like Rodeo and Coyote suffer, thank goodness, but try to put myself, what would that really be? So I’ll sit there for an hour without writing, just thinking about how would I feel. How would I process that? What are some good ways I might handle that? What are some bad ways I might handle that? To make it feel realistic and to get it to be as real as I can.
And I’m always super grateful when I get, like, messages from readers, readers of any age. I get, you know, emails from eight-year-olds and emails from 80-year-olds. And most of them are nice, which is good, but the ones where it’s from a kid or from a parent or from a teacher, where they’ve gone through something like what coyote goes through, and they say that I got it right and nothing could make me feel more relieved, but also more grateful when they say, like, oh, me and my daughter read this because a year ago she lost her mom and we loved it and we want to read the next one or whatever. Or I’ve got a student who just lost their sibling, and they came to me with tears in their eyes and said, this was the best book.
And so to think that maybe sometimes I get that right when it’s really important. Life, soul, family stuff, not just a fun plot device, that. And that’s a great feeling. So basically, I’m sorry. Long answer. I really work hard to do the best that I can because it’s not just a story. It’s bigger than that.
Bianca Schulze
A few things just came up for me with your response is one, not that I imagined that you had experienced a loss in tragedy as Coyote did, but it almost surprised me at the same time when you said that that wasn’t an experience. Because with writing, you can be reading a book, and it can be really great, and you can come along to a spot where maybe the writing gets a bit clunky and it kind of takes you out of the story. And I think what makes you a really great writer is that I never get that from beginning to end. I’m invested in the story, and it’s fully believable.
And so I think that’s why when you said that you haven’t experienced that, and I’m not even sure why I would assume that you had experienced that. You just. It felt so true. I would also say what else came up for me is that I haven’t experienced a tragedy like that. But I have experienced loss. And when you experience loss, it never goes away. It’s always there. But your days improve and your feelings improve, and you process it. And I just love that somehow, the way you’ve written this, I think it shares this message that there is no one way to process and to grieve, and whatever it looks like for you is okay.
And it doesn’t come across like the way Coyote and her family deal with this as preachy or— I mean, I just felt so invested in the story, and it just really felt so lovely the way they process it. But I also got the feeling that it wouldn’t matter how you process it as the reader if it was in a different way. So now I’m giving a long, rambly response.
Dan Gemeinhart
So I appreciate that—you’re right. Like, it’s, uh. This is how Coyote and Rodeo handled it. Rodeo doesn’t handle it very well, quite frankly. Um, and Coyote’s doing the best she can. And even in. In Coyote Lost and Found without giving anything. Anyway, um, at the end, there’s a scene with Coyote and Rodeo and Doreen. Um, and they’re making a choice about how to grieve. Basically, you could say or how not to grieve, or how to lay things to rest, or not lay things to rest. And it’s a scene at a pond. And Doreen makes a different choice than Coyote. And I did that on purpose to kind of show what you’re saying. Like, you do what you think is best for you, and you’re talking about grief and things like that, and there’s maybe no one right way to do it.
And different people are ready for different things and respond to different things. And it’s very complicated, and it’s big to deal with these feelings. And so be. Be gentle with yourself.
Bianca Schulze
Absolutely. Well, the story is set against the backdrop of the pandemic, so talk to me about this aspect. You’ve done a really nice job of making it clear which era the story takes place in, but it doesn’t dominate the story at all. It’s just almost like a factual part of the story. So just talk to me about that.
Dan Gemeinhart
Right. I was kind of delighted to do that, which sounds kind of weird, but as I was coming up with a story and trying to put it together in my head, I finally got the plot idea. It was post-pandemic, or probably mid-pandemic, post-pandemic when I was putting it together. And it just struck me odd, especially now in 2024, that the pandemic and the lockdowns were a big, crazy, traumatic event for our society and for our kids, like my readers. And what I think is so strange is how you don’t see it portrayed anywhere. Like, if you watch TV shows and movies and read books, you don’t even see it.
Like, we’re also these kids that, say, my 8th grade reader. So, in fourth grade, their lives came to a screeching halt, and the world came to a screeching halt, and they were stuck at home, and they were wearing masks. And then now it is a couple of years later, and you don’t see any of that inTv or movies or books. We’re all, like, pretending that it never happened, which I think is so weird. But also, you don’t want to make it like historical fiction. This is what life in the pandemic was like, because that takes more distance and time and perspective. And also, then it would become a different story, become a pandemic story instead of this coyote story.
But I thought, let’s just put that in the background. So that’s what’s going on in the world. And it did kind of help with the plot as well. So when she wants to go on this quest for her second book, she is going to school. So. Well, that’s not going to work. You can’t go on a ten-day road trip if you’re going to school. Well, what if this is right in March 2020, and school gets shut down? And so, the tiniest of silver linings, I’m not making light of COVID I mean, a lot of people died. It was a tragic event. But the slimmest of silver linings is this does allow coyote to go on this adventure.
And so, yeah, in the book, it’s not a huge part of the story, but stores are closed, restaurants are closed. They have to wear masks. She’s out of school. And so, like, acknowledging to kids, hey, remember that crazy thing that happened to you and your friends and your family? Yeah. It really did happen. And it wasn’t super fun, and it was weird and scary and confusing. And so, let’s have that in the background of this story.
Bianca Schulze
Yeah, yeah, exactly. All right. Well, I would love it if you could share a highlight from the book. It could be a favorite moment.
Dan Gemeinhart
Okay, I’ll say two. Two scenes that just kind of rose to my mind as scenes that I enjoyed. Also, so much of writing or anything creative is whether or not you like a scene or something is not so much the scene itself or how great it is or how not great it is, but how much it comes out in line with how you pictured it. Right. Like, if you’re doing a drawing and you’ve got this drawing in your head, and then you try to draw it with a pen and paper, your happiness with the drawing is going to be based mostly on, does it look like you wanted it to? Right.
And so two scenes that I had this clear image of not just what would happen, but how they would feel and how they would land and how they would wrap up. And they came out like I was hoping. Basically, I’m not saying they’re great scenes, but they came out in line with how I wanted them to come out, which is not always the case. A lot of times, there’s a lot of throwing away and scratching out and trying again and trying again and trying again. But these ones, I was like, oh, that’s. That’s what I was shooting for. That’s a good day of writing.
So one is, without giving anything away, a scene where they’re driving down the road, and if you’ve read it, you’ll know the scene. And they open up all the windows and put the music on loud. And then something terrible happens with her mother’s ashes. And if you haven’t read, you could probably guess just from how I set that up. And it is terrible, but it’s also kind of funny. And that’s an idea I had. Would this scene work? Would it land? And I wrote it, and I thought, yeah, that’s what I wanted. That’s what I was picturing.
So that scene, the blowout scene, and another much quieter scene, a scene that happens on the roof of the bus between Coyote and good old Salvador, where she is feeling really low, and she needs a friend, and he’s just a great friend, and he knows the right things to say. It has to do with. With caterpillars and butterflies, basically, but hopefully not as quite as cliche and cheesy as that sounds. As soon as I said it, I was like, oh, man, does that sound cliche? But it’s a little, an odd little angle on it. It’s not normally what you might think. And so that conversation again, the scene did what I wanted it to do, where hopefully it makes a believable transformation from where Coyote was, which was feeling hopeless and terrible, to where she needed to be, which still feels pretty terrible, but maybe seeing the start of a path forward thanks to the awesome friendship of Salvador.
And so those two scenes kind of rose to my mind.
Bianca Schulze
Can I just say I’m so glad that you brought up the blowout scene because I wanted to talk about it, but I was afraid to talk about it because I just didn’t— I’m always like, oh, I don’t want to do the spoiler thing. But. So I’m sitting there, I’m reading that scene, I’m like, kind of tearing up, I’m kind of laughing. And I’m thinking to myself, I can picture this so vividly. This is a movie scene. I would love to see this in a movie, with the music on. This was so amazing. This has to be a movie. And then I remembered that you recently just posted that the remarkable journey of Coyote Sunrise has been picked up for film rights. So I was like, I have to ask, when can we expect a movie? Will it be a movie that blends the two stories together? Is there going to be a movie of the second? I mean, tell us everything.
Dan Gemeinhart
Well, I can tell. I know, right? Well, everything. Nothing that’s secret as far as I know, but everything that I know. So it’s. Hollywood is a weird business, and I don’t understand it. Like, I get these cryptic little emails and so I’ve got nothing to do with this. But yeah, we sold the rights for the remarkable journey of Cavity Sunrise. To be made into a movie doesn’t mean it’s going to happen. I mean, these studios buy 100 books a year, and maybe one of them actually makes it into a project. But it made it past a bunch of the first few hurdles that end up stopping a lot of projects. Like there’s a director signed under contract, a great director, and there is a screenwriter signed who finished a script that got approved. And they’ve got producers and they’ve got a production company and funding, which is a really big deal. And so it could be happening.
And I don’t know— when I first got sold the movie rights, which was years ago, someone said, don’t get excited because these things happen incredibly slowly, or more likely, not at all. And that was good advice because that was like five years ago that we sold the rights and they just made the announcement. So I have no idea. But again, it’s looking like a couple of years ago I would have said it’s probably not going to happen. And now I might say it’s probably going to happen. I don’t know if I can use the word probably or not, but it is— It’s far from impossible and it’s great people working on it and great companies working on it.
So maybe, hopefully, someday. But as far as the other parts of the question, I don’t think it would be a mashup or anything because they already have a script of the first one, a completed screenplay by a good, great, qualified screenwriter. And so. No, but I mean, gosh, that would be fun. But, yeah, I’m glad you liked the blowout scene because it was a weird scene because it’s kind of funny, and it’s kind of tragic and it’s kind of gross. And then it’s also kind of sweet at the end. There’s some moments between Coyote and Rodeo, and to try to weave all that into one kind of crazy scene, that’s why I was like, I don’t know if this is going to work. And then it came out kind of like I was hoping. And so then it feels like. It feels good when that happens.
Bianca Schulze
Yeah. Well, for what it’s worth, for anybody who’s listening—I don’t know everybody who listens to the podcast, Dan—I mean, gosh, I sure hope somebody in the first movie is 100% made. And then I just want to see the blowout scene from the second book in a movie so badly. So, I’ve got my fingers crossed.
Dan Gemeinhart
Me, too.
Bianca Schulze
All right, well, what do you hope that readers will take away from Coyote Lost and Found and both books as a whole? You know, any specific messages or themes that feel most important to you?
Dan Gemeinhart
Oh, well, you know, that’s a great question, but at the end of the day, I always got my audience in mind. Like some writers say, oh, you know, never think about who’s going to read it. Like, you got to, whatever, follow your muse, be true to the story. And I think that’s ridiculous, at least for people writing for kids. Like, I think about my audience all the time because they’re busy and they’ve got sports and school and phones and video games, and there’s a lot going on in their lives and a lot of going on in their hearts. Right.
And so I always think about my readers and what I really want at the end of the day, every time is a story that they like. I want them to be entertained. I want them to keep turning the pages. I want them to get to the end and love reading it. Um, do I want them to think about some things, hopefully, and feel some big things? Sure. Of course. And those themes are really important, the emotions I put in there. I work really hard on that. But if, at the end of the day, if all they do is sit down and read it and think it’s a good story, um, and never think any deeper than that, I’m totally okay with that because, hey, there’s a kid sitting down and reading a book.
Uh, that being said, sure, I guess what I would hope for as far as walking away from this one is, like any book, all the books that I’ve mentioned and I’ve talked about being a lifelong reader, hopefully, a book that you read that, that you connect with, just makes your heart a little bit bigger, a little bit more empathetic, a little bit more understanding and accepting of others and what other people might be going through.
Because, you know, stories are great ways for us to think about our own lives and even to get ready for things in our own lives. Because maybe when you read or read this book, it makes them think about loss. It makes them think about grief and think about what they would do or think or feel if something happened to someone they loved. And maybe if or when that happens, they’ll be a little more ready because their heart already kind of tried that on a little bit. Or when, if something happens to someone and their friend loses something, they’ll have maybe a little bit more empathy or compassion in their heart understanding, because they’ve already worked through some of those thoughts.
So any story that you connect with, I think the end goal is to make your heart and make your understanding a little bit bigger than when you started. So that’s what I’d be going for in this book and for all my books.
Bianca Schulze
Well, beautiful. So when we’re talking about making your heart a bit bigger and for all your books, we have to talk about what’s coming up next for you as an author. And I got to read your super heartwarming picture book. It comes out in June of 2024, and it’s once upon a friend. And I have to tell you that before I picked it up, I read the summary, and it said it’s for fans of Beekle by Dan Santet, Toy Story, and Inside Out.
And as soon as I read the inside out part, I mean, my heart instantly broke. I was like, oh, my gosh, is this a book that’s going to make me tear up? Because all I could think about was Bing Bong in Inside Out. When Bing Bong disappears, my family makes so much fun of me. I cry hysterically when, well, spoiler if you haven’t watched Inside Out, but sorry, but when Bing Bong disappears.
So anyway, I was like, yes, I need to read this book. I loved it. And the gorgeous cover, and I hope I pronounced the illustrator’s name correctly, ShinYeon Moon. It has Bing Bong vibes all over the COVID to me. So, I’m going to stop rambling, and I want you to tell listeners what they can expect from your upcoming picture book. Once upon a friend.
Dan Gemeinhart
Oh, well, yeah, thank you very much. This. Yeah, the art. I had nothing to do with the art. I want to be really clear. But I love it. It’s beautiful. It’s amazing to write a story. Just the words for me, just the words. And then to have another human being, another artist, bring that to life in their own unique, beautiful way is awesome to watch. And you’re not really involved as the author. You’re not involved if they show you some rough drafts, kind of. And if there’s something like, kind of factually wrong, you could give some notes, like, oh, I was picturing it more like this. But other than that, it’s, you want them to do their job and to, you know, take whatever inspiration they have and express themselves through their medium, which is not words, which is pictures. And so it was, yeah, I love, love how it turned out.
So it is a story about, well, it really boils down to one of the lines in the book, which is a friend you make in a book is a friend you never have to leave behind. And it’s kind of, it came out of my own childhood and what books meant to me. And those books you read and love as a kid, and nobody loves a book the way it kid loves a book. And how those books and the characters in those books can be like your friends and they can be a through line through your life. As you face things in your own life and face challenges, you can look to those characters and the stories that you love for comfort or inspiration, and for courage. And so for me, growing up, there’s like the Berenstain bears and stuff.
And then with my own kids reading Junie B. Jones and Elephant and Piggy and the Berenstain Bears and the Princess in Black and Mercy Watson. And, like, these characters are not just, you know, whatever ink on a page you look at before you go to bed. Like, they become a part of your family and a part of your life, and you never have to say goodbye to them. And you can either remember them yourself for your whole life, or someday, if you’re lucky, you can share them with kids of your own and you get to share. Introduce your old friend to your new friend, kind of.
And so that’s basically what the book is about. I mean, there’s more of a plot, I guess. It’s not just poetic ramblings, but it’s about, yes, a reader, and the book character who is their friend and how that gets them through tough times and stays in their heart and in their lives as they grow older.
Bianca Schulze
Yeah. And this might be the most random comment of mine for the day, but as you’re talking, I’m like, it’s kind of like if The Giving Tree had a better ending, like a more fulfilling ending as well. Like, there’s this— books give and give to you, and I don’t want to spoil the ending, but I feel like you nailed it.
And it just—as a parent, and parents are often the ones reading the picture books to their children, this is a story that the kids are going to love, but it’s also a story that’s going to hit the parents in the hot. The parents that read to their kids every night that they can, the parents that love having their kids on their lap and reading a picture book. When you get to this final page, you’re going to be like, yes. Hot explosions. So well done.
Dan Gemeinhart
Awesome. Thank you. I’m going to push back. I love it. I know Giving Tree is a controversial book, and some people loathe it. It was one of my favorite books as a kid. And it’s weird, and it’s dark, and it’s unsettling, but I think that’s kind of what it’s supposed to be. And so, anyway, yeah, I’m a big fan of The Giving Tree for all of its weird, dark quirkiness. So I think it’s got a perfect ending. But I also understand why some people say, gosh, what kind of a kid’s book is this? Totally fair.
Bianca Schulze
Yeah, no, and I hear you. I feel like I sit right in the middle because I like that darker side of it. And it’s a pondering book and a book of conversation. But for the people that really don’t like the way that ends, I feel as though, if I drew a parallel between The Giving Tree and Once Upon a Friend, I feel like you give them the satisfying ending that their hearts are going to crave.
Dan Gemeinhart
Good. Thank you.
Bianca Schulze
All right, well, how different is it for you to write a middle grade novel versus a picture book?
Dan Gemeinhart
Oh, I mean, it’s night and day. It’s in every possible way. And, I mean, a picture book does take less time. It’s whatever, 200 words instead of 80,000 words. But it doesn’t necessarily take less effort or less work because, I mean, every. I mean, I would just struggle over and torture myself over every little word or comma. Because if you’ve only got, whatever, 170 words to tell your story, every word counts.
Like, in a chapter book, I can throw three paragraphs at something. I can throw a whole chapter at something. Paragraphs and paragraphs and paragraphs to make a point or to set a scene or whatever. And you don’t get to do any of that in a picture book. It’s just the most important things boiled down. And so it’s mostly cutting, and it’s a whole different process.
Also, you have to leave a lot of room for the illustrator, and so any sort of physical description you end up cutting out, which are helpful for your rough drafts for yourself, so you know what’s going on. But all of that stuff gets cut out along the way because I don’t need to say he walked in the room because that’ll be in the picture. Right. And so even learning that, like, my editor would be like, see all these descriptions? They’re all gone. I was like, what? And he’s like, they’re going to be in the picture. Well, of course, they are.
And so luckily, I’ve got a great editor, Brian Geffen. He’s amazing. He was the editor of Coyote Lost and Found and Midnight Children as well. And so he was— He showed me the ropes and helped me through that process. But, yeah, it’s fun. It’s because I have written plenty of novels, it’s fun to flex your muscles in different ways, try new things, learn new skills, and to struggle with something new. I think it’s good for your heart and your soul and your brain. And so it was really, really fun and really rewarding.
And I’ve got a couple more picture books coming out. I’ve got one in, one in 2025, and one in 2026. And so it’s fun to have other things to work on and to struggle with, basically. But it’s a struggle that’s fun. And turns out, with the product that I’m a finished product that I’m super proud of and happy to have out there in the world.
Bianca Schulze
All right, well, for our closing question, of all the things that we spoke about today, and we spoke about a lot, what’s the one most important point that you would love The Growing Readers listeners to take away?
Dan Gemeinhart
Ooh, that’s really interesting. I think that it would be; I guess that idea just coming from my own love for books and how important books of stories have been in my life. The idea that reading does a lot of things, but growing your heart is the most important one. And finding books that you love that make you think big things and feel big things is not just. Just a great way to pass the time, although it is. It is. It’s a way to connect with other people and to even make yourself a better person. If you can give a little more empathy and understanding for other people and what other people are going through— It sounds overdrawn to say it, but it makes the world a better place.
The more people and the more kids that read books that make them think and feel big things and grow their hearts a little bit, the better this world could be. And Lord knows it could use plenty of that at the moment. So, yeah. Yay-books, I guess, is the main idea of my most important point.
Bianca Schulze
Yes. I mean, I think that’s perfect. Yay, books. And I just— I gushed enough about your writing and your stories. I fully, wholeheartedly mean it. Coyote is one of my all-time favorite characters that I have ever read. So, for anyone who hasn’t read these books, please do yourself a favor and pick them up. And for anybody who has read them, I sure hope that you have enjoyed our conversation with Dan as much as I’ve had having it. So thank you, Dan, for coming on the show today.
Dan Gemeinhart
Thank you so much for having me. It’s always delightful. Your fantastic questions, which really challenge me, make me think harder and deeper about what I’m saying. So it was. It was a joy and an honor. So thank you for having me.
Bianca Schulze
A pleasure.
About the Book
Coyote Lost and Found
Written by Dan Gemeinhart
Ages 9+ | 288 Pages
Publisher: Henry Holt and Co. (2024) | ISBN-13: 9781250292773
Publisher’s Book Summary: From #1 New York Times-bestselling author Dan Gemeinhart comes a standalone companion to the critically-acclaimed The Remarkable Journey of Coyote Sunrise about a father and daughter who venture on a moving, uplifting, and rollicking cross-country road trip.
It’s been almost a year since Coyote and her dad left the road behind and settled down in a small Oregon town. . . time spent grieving the loss of her mom and sisters and trying to fit in at school. But just as life is becoming a new version of normal, Coyote discovers a box containing her mom’s ashes. And she thinks she might finally be ready to say goodbye.
So Coyote and her dad gear up for an epic cross-country road trip to scatter the ashes at her mom’s chosen resting place. The only problem? Coyote has no idea where that resting place is―and the secret’s hidden in a book that Coyote mistakenly sold last year, somewhere in the country. Now, it’s up to Coyote to track down the treasured book . . . without her dad ever finding out that it’s lost.
It’s time to fire up their trusty bus, Yager, pick up some old friends, discover some new ones, and hit the road on another unforgettable adventure.
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Show Notes
Dan Gemeinhart is the #1 New York Times-bestselling author of the middle-grade novels The Midnight Children, The Remarkable Journey of Coyote Sunrise, The Honest Truth, Some Kind of Courage, Scar Island, and Good Dog. A former elementary teacher-librarian and lifelong reader, he lives with his wife and three daughters in a small town in Washington state.
Find Dan Gemeinhart online at http://dangemeinhart.com.
Once Upon a Friend on Amazon and Bookshop.org.
Thank you for listening to the Growing Readers Podcast episode: Growing Readers’ Hearts: An Interview with Dan Gemeinhart on Coyote Lost and Found. For the latest episodes from The Growing Readers Podcast, Subscribe or Follow Now.
