Mac Barnett on Flipping Santa’s Story in ‘Santa’s First Christmas’

A podcast interview with Mac Barnett discussing Santa’s First Christmas on The Growing Readers Podcast, a production of The Children’s Book Review.

Award-winning children’s author Mac Barnett joins us to discuss his heartwarming new picture book Santa’s First Christmas, beautifully illustrated by Sydney Smith.

In this fresh take on holiday storytelling, Santa experiences the magic of Christmas Day for the very first time, thanks to his thoughtful elves. Mac shares insights into the creative process and his collaboration with acclaimed illustrator Sydney Smith and reflects on how Christmas books create special yearly traditions for families. From the warmth of Christmas lights to sneaking tastes of cookie icing, discover how this charming story turns the traditional Santa narrative on its head while celebrating the joy of both giving and receiving during the holiday season.

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Bianca Schulze: All right. Hello, Mac. Welcome back to the Growing Readers podcast.

Mac Barnett: Thank you so much for having me back. It’s a pleasure.

Bianca Schulze: I had such a blast with you and Christian Robinson. It was like a year and a half ago. It actually doesn’t feel like that long ago to me, but I loved that episode. And so I just really hope that anybody that didn’t get a chance to listen to it will go back because you talked a lot about what guides you and drives you. But something we talked about was your day-to-day practices. And your response just made me laugh because you said you don’t really have a day-to-day practice. And so I wanted to check in with you and just see, in the last year and a half, has anything changed for how you go about your day and your process when you are creating books?

Mac Barnett: No, it’s still a mess. It’s still a total mess.

Yeah. So we have a three-year-old and he is in preschool. So there’s a much more constrained window this year. He’s at school from 8:30 to four. So it’s basically from nine to 3:30 is this sacred period of time that I have to work and I feel like I blow it every single day. It used to be back in the day, I would have 12, 14, 16 hours to absolutely waste every day. And now with time being so precious, I only have, what is that? 8:39, 7 hours to waste every day. But I still waste them. I have no routine. I don’t have any word count or set number of pages or time set aside. It feels like every day stuff is falling on top of me. Things are landing in my inbox or books are piling up for me to read. It’s a mess. It’s a total mess. I’m a mess. I like anybody who’s disciplined, I envy and honestly resent a little bit. I resent when I hear people talk about their orderly writing lives.

Bianca Schulze: Yeah, yeah, I hear you now. So something that I do every day is—so I have three kids, but my youngest is at the elementary school. And across South Street we have a playground. And I walk across the street to meet him every afternoon just to have that connection point and some time between him coming home. And then I go back to work once we get back. But I don’t know about you, but it’s that 30 minutes right before I’m about to go and meet him at the playground. So essentially pick him up from school when everything starts kicking in and I’m like head down. And I feel like I always have to stop when I’ve finally got my momentum.

Mac Barnett: Yeah, very much so. That actually I relate to that. I am like, that’s a big peak awakeness time for me is the afternoon. I’m not a morning person. So, yeah, three, like, 3:00 to 8:00 that’s normally a great time for me to work, and it’s basically nonexistent. I’ve had to trick myself into believing that I’m a morning person now, but it’s not when I’m supposed to be working. You know, I like the afternoon. I really loved back in the day. I loved late at night, like, midnight, 1:00, 2:00, 3:00, 4:00 in the morning. That was my favorite time to write, when everybody was asleep. That sense of quiet, just sort of citywide quiet, was really conducive to writing. But that’s—those days are gone now.

Bianca Schulze: You have new, different, exciting, and you’re probably going to get so much inspiration from just your son in general. Have you noticed that?

Mac Barnett: You know, it’s funny, I think that, yes, it does. Like, it puts you in close connection with childhood and with a child’s experiences. And I do think that some sort of close connection to children’s experiences is a prerequisite to writing good children’s books. I will say he’s like a very different kind of reader from the one I was. He loves trucks and trains, transportation, logistics. I was much more animals tricking each other. That was my favorite kind of story. And Ralph likes those, too. But I’ve had to learn a lot about trucks. And I don’t think—I don’t know, maybe if you see me write about a fire truck, then you’ll know, yeah, Mac got influenced. But honestly, I think that kind of the fun of books and literature and the great thing about them, you know, I’m learning about transportation alongside Rafe. This is not a base of knowledge I have. And there are these books out there, these stories that he connects to so deeply. Stories that I could not have written or told him, stories written by people who share that enthusiasm in that point of view. And I think that my role as a father and my role as a children’s book writer, those are sort of two different roles. And sometimes the role of parent and children’s book writer can be complementary, as in this case, where there’s this vast well of knowledge, enthusiasm, and experience that I don’t have access to. But Richard Scarry or Ann Rockwell or Donald Crews can come in and supplement. Sometimes they’re in tension with each other, though, too. I think that, like, as a father, I’m always very interested in providing structure, and I do think that’s important. And a part of my job as a writer, I’m particularly interested in knocking down structure and very skeptical of structure. And so in some ways, I think that my job as a writer is kind of to make my job as a father more complicated.

Bianca Schulze: That’s so fascinating. I’m really going to have to actually listen back to this episode and take all of that back in. But on that sort of structure and knocking down structure, let’s talk about your latest book. You offer this brand new, fresh perspective on Santa Claus, and it’s Santa experiencing Christmas for himself. Instead of the bringer of Christmas, he gets to receive Christmas. So talk about the inspiration for this new story. And just where did that seed of the idea come from?

Mac Barnett: Well, yeah, the book is called Santa’s First Christmas. And what it’s about is the first time that Santa actually celebrates Christmas day. He’s so important to Christmas, but his job is done on Christmas Eve. He wraps up, and that’s sort of the last we hear about Santa. And so that is sort of the initial premise of this book that basically he works a really long day after a long season of making toys and traditionally just sleeps on the 25th. But the elves start to feel a little guilty about this and decide to throw him a Christmas celebration. They figure this guy should get to celebrate. And so the way the book works, I think, is an inversion. Its structure is sort of that of a child’s first Christmas and runs through lots of rituals and traditions of Christmas. We get to see somebody experience this magic for the first time. But in this case, it’s the guy we would consider to be the ultimate Christmas expert and an adult and a very old man. And so you have this authority figure brought to the place of the child. And if it is a child learning these traditions for themselves, they get to have Santa as a companion. And then if they know this stuff, you know, it’s always fun to know more than an adult. It’s really fun to know more than Santa.

Bianca Schulze: Absolutely. And so, like, when did you know this was a story that you could make into a book? Because I’m sure you have lots of ideas that maybe you noodle around. But when did you know that this was a story that could become a book?

Mac Barnett: Well, it’s funny. I actually—so last year I had a book called “How Does Santa Go Down the Chimney?” that John Klassen illustrated. And that one is just sort of, the narrator is pondering this question, how does Santa get down the chimney? And proposes a bunch of theories, kind of wild theories that John illustrates. And both of those books were written at the same time, like Christmas time, three years ago, maybe four years ago. It takes so long to make a book. I don’t know. Three or four years ago, I was working on Santa’s First Christmas, this book, and I don’t know. I don’t know when I knew it was actually going to come together and work. This one took much longer to sort of iron out and figure out all the moving parts in the middle of it. I got the idea for the other one, and then I was in this very strange situation of sending my agent two books about Santa at the same time, which my agent is so unflappable. His name is Steve Malk. He’s a very good agent. I feel a lot of times I’ll be sending—I’ll just be like, I’ll send him just like, the weirdest book. It doesn’t feel weird to me, but I am aware that, like, it’s a strange concept or that it’s like, a huge departure from the book that I’ve written before. And none of that ever bothers me when, as a writer or publishing them, putting out in the world. But the only time I ever feel guilty is when I send them to Steve because he’s the first to see it, and I’m like, oh, is he just going to be like, what is Mac doing over there? And this was definitely one of those where I was like, hey, hey, Steve, here’s two books, and they’re both about Santa, and they’re totally different. And he was, as always, like, great. Well, let’s figure it out. So, yeah, it was a big year for picture books about Santa, for me. Yeah, I think it was 2020. I think it was. I think that was, like, October, November, December of 2020 that I was working on these.

Bianca Schulze: Well, as you said, I mean, from the time you turn in a manuscript and then it becomes a book, that can be a really long time. Which one sold first? Is it in the order that they—

Mac Barnett: Were published? They sold at the same time, but to different publishers. And I think that there was some working out of, like, the order and some cooperation between the publishers there. John was signed on to “How Does Santa Go Down the Chimney?” So we had the illustrator already attached there, and I think that that one just was a little more streamlined because of that.

Bianca Schulze: Yeah. I’m just always so curious about sometimes, like, the business side behind the books. I mean, we talk mostly about the creativity, but sometimes the business part can dictate when a book releases. And anyway, it’s so fascinating. Well, so the story focuses on Santa’s loyal elves wanting to give him the Christmas experience. So what really prompted you to highlight this relationship between Santa and his helpers? Was there anything sort of deeper going on there, or it just was just that idea that came to you that you already touched on?

Mac Barnett: I get—I—That’s a good question. I don’t know. I think that I can say what’s interesting about it after the fact, but when I’m writing there, I don’t have—I don’t have an agenda that way. I’m just trying to create interest, create emotional interest. It really, like, I don’t—I’m not, like, hovering above the piece. It’s very much sort of in it, trying to make the story work. And I think that just came to set up this initial premise that the elves feel bad and their guilt about just never thinking of Santa this way sets things in motion. The book opens by describing how Santa does his job and then says when he gets home, he slept. That’s it. And a bear, a polar bear who lives in the North Pole, is—that’s when we sort of, after we turn the page and we see that there’s a bear talking to some elves, and he’s shocked that that’s it, that there’s no celebration, that Santa doesn’t have a Christmas. And the elves have never thought of it this way. They, you know, this is just how Christmas has always worked for them. And it’s this bear, it’s this other point of view that makes them see that things have been lacking a little bit at the North Pole. I don’t know. There was no purpose of that except to really have it—I think things work better when—and again, this is after the fact, looking at it. Things work better when there is an emotional problem that people are trying to solve.

Bianca Schulze: Well, since your story shows Santa experiencing the magic of Christmas for the first time, what aspect of Christmas magic were you most excited to introduce to Santa in the story?

Mac Barnett: Hmm. I think—I think the way we ended, we ended it with a big Christmas feast, a Christmas dinner, and I love getting together with friends and family and candles on the table and a lot of food to talk and sing songs on a dark and cold night. I love that part of a holiday. And I think that’s the moment that this book is building toward. Yeah.

Bianca Schulze: Everybody coming together. I just think that this particular story—so even though it’s this fresh perspective and take on Santa getting to receive Christmas instead of just bringing it, it feels so nostalgic. And I think it’s because of all of the traditions, and it feels like some of the traditional aspects are—you know what I mean? I grew up in Australia, and I related. It felt like how we celebrate here in the United States, and parts of it felt European, and it just felt like this beautiful, traditional, just very nostalgic feeling. And Sydney Smith’s illustrations, just—I love them so much, and I can never pronounce this word correctly, so everybody can just laugh at me. But watercolor and gouache. Gouache, gouache. Gouache.

Mac Barnett: But I like gouache, I think. And, you know, just claim Australia and nobody can ever say anything. Yeah, that’s how we say it in Australia.

Bianca Schulze: Yeah, exactly. So I mean, the way I say, I’m never sure if it’s narrator or narrator. Anyway, it doesn’t matter. I say things straight to you sometimes. But Sydney Smith’s watercolor and gouache illustrations, they’re just so warm and cozy. And then there’s those bright pops of red that are so synonymous with Christmas and Santa. And I felt like when I was looking at each page, that they could be on beautiful hand-painted ornaments hanging on the tree. Like, that’s just how it felt to me. So I want to know about how you feel about the artwork and this collaboration and how Sydney was chosen as the illustrator.

Mac Barnett: Yeah, I mean, I love Sydney’s work. I’ve known Sydney for a long time. I think that he is one of the best living painters just in the world, not just working in kids’ books. He really knows how to craft a picture book, which not all painters know how to do. But I think that—and we’re very lucky to have him as, like I say, we—it’s like people who make children’s literature, but—but, you know, kids are so lucky to have him, too. I think that this is exactly who we want making picture books for our kids. Right? We want the best writers, the best painters, the best illustrators, people who have just really just a very high level of talent, but also a particular understanding of children’s experiences and a knack for also constructing a picture book, which is a very peculiar art form. And Sydney has all those things. So it was a dream to work with him. I’ve been wanting to work with him for years, and in this case, I think this was great. This was our editor Tamar’s idea. And so she wrote, and she was like, what do you think about Sydney Smith for this? And I thought it was inspired. And so they sent him the manuscript. Luckily, he liked it. Sydney and I know each other, so, like, he got the manuscript officially, and then Sydney texted me and was like, what? What is going on here? And I was like, yeah. But I was—I was so happy. I was so happy he signed on to, and even happier when I saw the work. I agree. I think that it’s just so beautiful. Sydney is, I think, very famous for light and color, and I think there are just some moments there. Right. All the Christmas lights on the houses in the North Pole is such a magical moment. There’s sort of built on this page turn wherever I—there’s a two-page spread, and it’s daytime. No. Is it daytime?

So there’s a two-page spread, and it’s nighttime, and it says that they strung the North Pole with colorful lights. Then they counted to three—one, two, three. And so it’s a two-page spread, and just the houses in the dark, and you’re building up to that one, two, three. You turn the page, and the lights go on. It’s a wordless spread, same composition. That is like—that’s a lot of pressure to put on an illustration, to put on an artist, to—basically, it’s structured as a magic trick. Right? We say, like, here’s this thing. Count to three. You turn the page, and it’s going to change, and it has to take your breath away when it happens. And he absolutely nails it. It’s so beautiful. And it does feel like that moment, which is definitely at our house. One of my favorite moments of Christmas time is when I string the lights up, and then we get everybody outside to see how they actually look. Yeah. Sydney can pull off all the challenges that were thrown at him by this manuscript. Some of them are technical, and a lot of them are just emotional getting to—just, like you say, that feeling of warmth, of coziness, of nostalgia. Yeah. He just did such a beautiful job.

Bianca Schulze: Yeah, absolutely. And, I mean, when you say glow, I think what can make the artwork glow is understanding how to balance the darker, richer tones so that those lighter tones can glow. And he just nails that. The wood cabin feeling of the indoors. And then with a candlelit or Christmas tree lights, I think it’s just beautiful.

Mac Barnett: Yeah.

Bianca Schulze: So one of my favorite parts of the book is Santa putting his fingers in the icing.

Mac Barnett: Yeah.

Bianca Schulze: And being asked to go to another room. And sometimes when I was reading, I was even wondering if, like, Santa and I are the same person. Like, I felt—I felt like Santa was me. And so I just—I just loved that moment. So for me, like, one of the—my favorite little moments was Santa putting his fingers in the icing. So you just described the—the lights coming on in the village. Like, is there another moment that you just feel particularly fond of or proud of?

Mac Barnett: Oh, I’m glad you—I’m glad you mentioned that one. I really liked that one, too, because the elves scold him. They say, like, no, we’re saving those cookies for you know who. And Santa’s so confused, but they just send him to the other room. And I think that moment, wherever—yeah, I think that’s the moment where this inversion that sets up the whole thing reaches its most ridiculous point. Right? Like, Santa, we see him, he’s acting like a kid. He’s eating the batter, he’s eating the icing. And just like, we’ll say to kids, like, no, we’re saving those cookies. But Santa’s like, wait, who are you saving these for? This is my stuff. And that, I think that inversion and that we sort of pay off a couple spreads later is my favorite moment, where this very simple premise now has reached this, I think, I hope, legible, but this kind of super recursive point, that’s always going to be my favorite, where Santa is so confused because they’re saving cookies for Santa. Yeah. Yeah.

Bianca Schulze: Well, I completely relate to your brief bio on the jacket flap of this book, and I’m not a good singer, but I, too, love to sing a Christmas carol. So now I just—after reading the jacket flap, I needed to know what your favorite Christmas carol is.

Mac Barnett: Oh, this is a good question. All right. I think my favorite Christmas carol is probably Good King Wenceslas. I love that one. But I will say, having some caroling parties at our house, I have really—I have totally changed my opinion of the Twelve Days of Christmas, which I think is one of the most hated Christmas carols, because it’s an hour and a half long. It’s a terrible one to sort of listen to. If you’ve got the Christmas station on and that one comes on, it’s pretty brutal. But as a sing-along, it is so great. And so there’s been a huge change that has gone from the absolute bottom to near the top for me. But nothing is ever going to unseat Good King Wenceslas.

Bianca Schulze: I mean, all I want to just break out right now is five golden rings.

Mac Barnett: Yeah, absolutely. Yes. We—and we normally, when we have a Christmas party, we divvy it up so everybody gets one of those. And five golden rings is a very—whoever gets—whoever draws the five is very lucky.

Bianca Schulze: Yeah, absolutely. Because it’s like that—it’s that pinnacle moment, too, where, like, it just—it’s just the whole cadence just, you know, slows down for that moment. I love that. I like to do an operatic version, normally, but—

Mac Barnett: Oh, yeah.

Bianca Schulze: While the book only mentions that Santa and the elves sang carols through the night, which Christmas carol do you think would be Santa’s favorite?

Mac Barnett: Oh, what is going to be Santa’s favorite? That’s a good question. You know—

I’m honestly—and this is, like, not just a cop-out. I can’t—I can’t speak for Santa. You know, I don’t—I don’t—I don’t know. This is a guy—I have a lot of reference—reverence for. Not a lot of reference for. I have a lot of reverence for this guy. I—that—to say, what he—I don’t know. What do you think? I’m gonna make you—I’m gonna make you do this. I don’t—I don’t know what Santa likes.

Bianca Schulze: Mm. I’m just gonna go with Jingle Bells. I don’t know. All right. You know?

Mac Barnett: Very vanilla. Very vanilla.

Bianca Schulze: Well, Mac, your story presents Santa in a vulnerable light, experiencing something new, and emphasizes the importance of taking time to enjoy the holiday. So, how do you hope that this portrayal might resonate with not just the kids, but the adults, too?

Mac Barnett: You know, I don’t ever—I don’t write with a ton of intention or send my books out with a ton of intention in terms of, like, how they’re going to be received or interpreted in some ways. Of course, I have, like, some hopes or ideas about what they mean or how they could be read, but it also always feels like to say that out loud is to give away the game. I like to—the book is the book. The book is the thing, and you can read it. And to know what I’m intending for me to call my shot would affect that reading in some way. So I will dodge the question very much. But I will say this, that, for me, Christmas books were always special growing up, because they were the only books that got put away and then brought back out. And so it was this sort of yearly time capsule, and I think that’s a really cool thing. My mom would box up our Christmas books, put them in storage with the ornaments and the decorations. And then at about the time when we’d get a tree, the boxes would come back out, and all these books that I loved and hadn’t seen for a year, we could read them again. And that kind of connection of coming to a book on a kind of annual cadence, it made a very special relationship to those picture books. So that’s kind of what I hope. That would be a great thing, for this book, to just be one of those books that gets put in the box and then brought out year after year and read it again and again, and that gets to change with its readers.

Bianca Schulze: Yeah. Well, if it makes you feel good, this book will definitely be going in our box of Christmas books, because we have—

Mac Barnett: All right, I—

Bianca Schulze: So you’ve won already, Mac, is there anything else that you want to share about this book? Either about the story itself or your creation? Anything at all before we go?

Mac Barnett: No, I think this was great. Thank you so much for being curious about it. It was really a pleasure to talk to you.

Bianca Schulze: Well, Mac, thank you for sharing all of your insights into Santa’s First Christmas. I have made a mental note that if you come back on the show, I will not ask you what your hopes are for your book.

Mac Barnett: No, it’s okay. I’ll just give the same rant.

Bianca Schulze: I love it. I love it. Well, your collaboration with Sidney Smith has truly brought a fresh and heartwarming perspective to the canon of holiday books. It will be going into many people’s Christmas boxes, I’m sure. And I’m positive that readers, young and old, will find something to cherish in this story. Whether it’s those cozy illustrations or the touching moments between Santa and his elves, or just the simple joy of experiencing Christmas anew. Santa’s First Christmas reminds us that even those we see as magical, like Santa, can benefit from the warmth and joy of Christmas. And I think it’s a beautiful message about the importance of community and gratitude and taking time to celebrate with those that we care about. So thank you for joining us today, Mac. And here’s hoping that your book becomes a cherished part of so many families’ holiday traditions for years to come.

Mac Barnett: Oh, thank you so much. That was really beautifully put. I appreciate it.

About the Book

Publisher’s Book Summary: Mac Barnett and Sydney Smith team up for an unforgettable celebration of Christmas.

We all know that Santa makes everyone’s dreams come true every Christmas, but it turns out that he needs a little help getting into the holiday spirit himself. Instead of letting Santa get right back to work after he returns home to the North Pole on Christmas morning, his loyal elves want to make sure he experiences the same Christmas cheer he provides for others. With the perfect tree, lots of delicious treats, and, of course, presents, Santa experiences the magic of Christmas for the very first time.

Beloved children’s book creators Mac Barnett and Sydney Smith have unveiled Santa unlike ever seen before, and as a result, created a merry, new Christmas classic.

Buy the Book

Show Notes

About the Author: Mac Barnett is the New York Times bestselling author of many picture books, including the New York Times bestseller The Wolf, the Duck, and the Mouse; the Caldecott Honor Book and E.B. White Read-Aloud Award winner Sam and Dave Dig a Hole; and the Caldecott Honor Book and Boston Globe-Horn Book Award winner Extra Yarn. He also coauthors the bestselling Terrible Two series with Jory John. Mac lives in Oakland, California.

For more information, visit https://www.macbarnett.com/

Thank you for listening to the Growing Readers Podcast episode Mac Barnett on Flipping Santa’s Story: ‘Santa’s First Christmas‘. For the latest episodes from The Growing Readers Podcast, Subscribe or Follow Now.