Sally J. Pla Talks About Her Novel ‘The Fire, the Water, and Maudie McGinn’

This podcast interview is presented in partnership with Sally J. Pla and The Children’s Book Review.

Sally J. Pla is the award-winning author of books for young readers, including The Someday Birds and Stanley Will Probably Be Fine. In this episode of The Growing Readers Podcast, she shares insights into her latest novel, The Fire, the Water, and Maudie McGinn. 

This captivating and hopeful tale explores important themes such as divorce, neurodivergence, and abuse, each providing valuable life lessons for all of us. Sally describes the main character of Maudie as a girl who learns resiliency in the face of life’s challenges.

Sally’s insightful commentary on the importance of reading about characters who are different from us to broaden our empathy and understanding is truly inspiring. Also discussed is her resource for mental health and neurodiversity representation in children’s literature, anovelmind.com, which serves as an incredibly valuable tool for all those who seek to expand their knowledge and gain a deeper appreciation for diversity and inclusion.

Go ahead and enjoy this conversation and embrace the power of stories like The Fire, The Water, and Maudie McGinn and use them to enrich your life and promote a more compassionate world.

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Bianca Schulze

Hi, Sally. Welcome to the Growing Readers podcast.

Sally J. Pla

Hi, Bianca. Thank you so much for having me.

Bianca Schulze

Oh, my gosh. It’s an absolute pleasure. I can’t wait to talk about your book, but before we do, I thought starting with a couple of icebreaker questions might be fun today because we have some things in common besides writing and reading, and one of those is that we’ve actually spent time living in multiple countries and a lot of different US. States. So, my first question is, do you have a favorite place that you’ve lived? And if so, what makes it your favorite?

Sally J. Pla

Oh, my goodness. I think several. When I was 15, 16— 17 years old— and I am old. That was way back in the late 1970s. I lived in Caracas, Venezuela, and it was this magical time because I was in this small school. I went from a big, anonymous American high school to this tiny little international high school with kids from all over the world, and it was just so wonderful. I felt like I could be myself a bit for the first time. So that was a magical time and place.

Bianca Schulze

That’s fantastic. I’m sure the cultural experience was life-changing, too.

Sally J. Pla

It was awesome. And I am detecting an Australian accent in you.

Bianca Schulze

Yes, correct. Australian. I am officially more American than Australian now, I think, based on the amount of time I’ve lived here. But I definitely have that odd accent that people like to have guesses at. So I’m impressed that you got Australian right off the bat.

Sally J. Pla

Well, my daughter-in-law, my son just got married not too long ago, and my daughter-in-law is Australian. We love her so much. So, I love hearing your accent.

Bianca Schulze

Well, tell her a happy Australian hello for me. I also read that your husband is from France, and I have a mild obsession with baking and eating French pastry and Patisserie items. What’s your favorite sweet treat to eat when you are in France? And that’s assuming that you like to eat sweet treats.

Sally J. Pla

Oh, who doesn’t?

Let’s see.

I think my favorite thing is there’s this little town, and they make this almond torch thing that’s, like, their specialty. And it’s the most delicious thing I’ve ever eaten in my life. I still dream about it.

Bianca Schulze

That’s amazing. I love that you even have that beautiful French accent when you speak French words. So, since it’s easy to imagine that writers just spend their days hidden behind a computer or a typewriter, I’m curious what your typical day looks like.

Sally J. Pla

Well, I’m hidden behind a computer, basically, and locked in a room and not doing too much. Now, a typical day is, yeah, it’s a very quiet, mellow household here. I live with my husband and one of my sons who’s still home, and we noodle around in our own books and screens and things and working remotely, and it’s very quiet and peaceful, so it’s not too hard. It’s good because then it’s not too hard to get the work done. I just basically do that most mornings until I have to leap up screaming and needing to do something else. Like probably a little after twelve noon.

Bianca Schulze

What’s one thing in your day-to-day practices that you think would be the most surprising or maybe the most relatable to listeners?

Sally J. Pla

Oh, my goodness. Well, I think probably the most relatable thing is trying to sustain your attention on a task. Sometimes it’s really easy, and I just fall in the zone, and hours go by, and I’m so immersed in writing the story that it goes by fast. But then other times it’s really hard and just that pull of your attention into other things and falling down the silly rabbit holes of the internet and saying, no, I need to get back to this. I need the dopamine of writing my story, not the dopamine of shoe shopping.

I think we all deal with that.

Bianca Schulze

Do you have any tips for when you’re wondering but you need to be focused to get that focus back?

Sally J. Pla

I actually use a software called Freedom on my laptop. It’s about $4 a month for the privilege of blocking all of the extraneous things that could distract you. And it does help me. It does help because I’ll think, oh, I wonder if I should research that. And I’ll go, and a big green screen will appear and says, freedom, you are free to pursue what you need to pursue. And, like, I can’t go there. And so, oh well, I’ll turn back to my work. So that’s my little secret weapon. I love it.

Bianca Schulze

Well, I know that your mission is to populate children’s literature with as much or as many neurodivergent characters as possible. So, I would love to know when this became your mission and why it’s a mission that’s especially important to you.

Sally J. Pla

Oh, my goodness. Yeah. It’s been a long, evolving story to get me to this place. I didn’t start writing for children until— I started around 2014 or 15. I was always a writer. I wrote different kinds of things. I was a business journalist; I wrote freelance articles for corporate—I did corporate freelance for business writing.

When I had my children, all of whom are neurodivergent in different ways, it kind of brought me into that world more of advocating for them and being aware for them and, of course, concerned for them. And I realized that there was nothing in the school library that they could relate to that really reflected their experience. And I kind of thought that’s hard. That’s just another area where your kid comes up as feeling othered because there’s not really something there when you have a kid with autism or OCD or any type of mental health issue or neurodivergence. Back then, it was really hard.

My kids are in their 20s and early 30s right now, so we’re talking way back when. It’s much better now. But that’s what awakened in me, I think, the need to do something about that. It was what I really did want to write about. And a family move from Wisconsin to California and giving up my previous work afforded me a little window of new free time. And then I had a health emergency. Actually, what really got me down to it was I had cancer when we first moved here, and it really refocused me about, okay, we only have a given amount of time on this earth. What is it that I’ve always wanted to do all my life? And it was to write books.

So those two things kind of converged for me. The desire, allowing myself, giving myself permission to try to write a work of fiction, something truly just creative, as opposed to all that freelancing, and knowing that the subject of that would have to be what was closest to my heart, which is the kids that I love. Who are the othered kids, the differently wired kids, the kids that struggle. Those are the kids that I love. I just fiercely, fiercely loved them all and wanted to do something to help them feel more, to see themselves, to feel more represented in the world. Because when we can read about ourselves, hear stories about ourselves, we feel like, yeah, okay, it’s not just me. I exist in the world. There’s a place for me in the world, other people like me are in the world, and kids find this out through reading.

So, it just became really important to me. It almost wasn’t a conscious decision. Those were the kids I wanted to write about, and it just came naturally.

Bianca Schulze

Yeah, well, we’re grateful that you do embrace the neuro divergence and create these books for readers because they’re much needed.

So, your latest published book is The Fire, the Water, and Maudie McGinn, and it absolutely broke me, and then it mended me, and, oh my God, I’m going to cry right now. I cried in so many different spots. Obviously, there’s some complex parts; those were hard. And then there’s the hopeful parts as well, and I cried in those. I was like, when am I going to stop crying? At one point, I was like; It’s just my allergies. No, it’s not. And I had to go and blow my nose. It was crazy. But I just think it’s such a beautifully poignant book. The word poignant gets thrown around a lot, but it’s a perfect description of your book. So, I would love it if you would talk us through the story’s premise and how it fits in with your mission.

Sally J. Pla

The story’s premise. It sort of came to me because I live by the ocean more or less here in Southern California and would walk along the beach through an RV campground frequently that’s nearby and looking at the little community that was there, all these campers of various sizes, from people’s very rustic tents, actually, all the way up to big deluxe RVs. And there’d be beach towels flapping on the lines and kids running around playing or on their bikes and adults talking and chatting. And it just struck me as this little community, this little microcosm of humanity, what a cool place it would be to set a story there.

And I guess I knew I wanted to write about a girl. I’ve had two previous books about autistic boys, having raised three boys, and this one I knew had to be— I wanted it to be more reflective of my experience and of a girl. And so, Maudie was born that way, and I have an ancestor named Maudie, so she’s kind of an honor of that.

And, yeah, it’s a very tough struggle that she has. She has an internal struggle, and she has an external struggle, too. She has a two-part life during the school year. She lives with her mum and her stepdad. And it’s a new stepdad, and it’s a sort of abusive situation. He has anger attacks. He gets very, very angry, and occasionally he gets physical. And he just is so frustrated by his inability to understand her different behaviors that he just gets super frustrated and lashes out. And I wanted to present him and the mother as not just straight-up evil villains, although the stepdad really is an evil villain. But he does feel remorse afterward, too. And the mom just does not know how to deal with the situation. So that’s Maudie’s school year situation.

And then she goes to stay with her dad during the summer, and he’s absolutely the opposite. He’s a very kind, gentle, respectful, understanding dad. And they have a lovely, healthy relationship. And her dad also is, you find out, during the course of the book, Neurodivergent as well and had struggles in school similar to Maudie’s. So, he’s able to have compassion and relate and understand and accept her for who she is. So those two different parts,

I wanted it to be a book of hope and overcoming and realizing how important it is to speak out. And I guess maybe that’s partly from my own. I got diagnosed on the autism spectrum as an adult, and it took me a while to be able to speak out about it myself. And once I was able to talk about all the failures and the struggles of my past and what brought me to this point and all that stuff, it’s just so healthy to be able to talk about that, just to be open.

This is a wonderful line. I think it was Judge Louis Brandeis who said many, many decades ago sunshine is the best disinfectant. And I’ve always loved that line; just shining sunlight, shining light on our problems, or being able to voice them is so important. So, this is a book about Maudie learning how to open up to the sunlight and air her problems and confide and talk to adults that love her and a community that loves her and realize that therein lies her salvation.

Bianca Schulze

Yes, well, it is very character driven.

So, I want to take a deep dive into the characters, but before we do, will you share your thoughts about the importance of reading inside the minds of different types of characters?

Sally J. Pla

Oh, yes. It’s so important, I think, for us to remember. While it’s wonderful to see ourselves reflected in books and to search for that, that we grow. The most wonderful way to grow our empathy, our compassion, our understanding of the world, and our understanding of humanity is we’ve got to step outside of that too. We have to search out books about people that are as different from us as possible, and we find out, and when we read that actually, they’re not different at all, usually is what happens. But it’s so important to help broaden us, especially for kids, to help broaden their understanding of the world.

And I think with all the issues and troubles going on today where people are banning books or concerned about children reading different types of books; a book is not going to change a child. It’s only going to increase that child’s understanding of a very complicated world that they’re going to inherit. And I think our kids need all the tools they can get to understand this world and prepare for it. So, by limiting their access to information about the world is not doing them any service at all.

Bianca Schulze

I couldn’t have said that better.

Let’s go into those characters. So, we’ve touched on Maudie. What do you want listeners to know about her?

Sally J. Pla

She’s just, at heart, pure goodness and thoughtfulness, and she cares about others, and she wants to do the right thing. She’s so anxious about doing the right thing, and she just wants to be part of the world, and she wants to be accepted and loved, and she has a lot of love to give to all the people around her, and she’s coming into her power a little bit. She’s found out that she just absolutely loves being by the ocean and swimming, and she’s just yearning to learn how to surf. She watches the surfers out in the water every day, and she just wants to join them. It becomes a passion that she just absolutely has to learn.

And the story is very much her story about coming into her power, just kind of a girl power story about learning how to surf. It’s a little bit of a metaphor for her, too. And another one of my favorite quotes is from Jon Kabat Zinn, the mindfulness expert, and he has a quote that says life will keep coming at you in waves. Or it’s something like— I’m not going to say it right, I’m going to have to paraphrase it, but it’s like life comes, or it hits you in waves, but as long as you know how to surf, you’ll be okay. Or you have to surf the waves.

And that’s kind of what Maudie learns throughout the course of the book. I mean, she does learn how to surf actual waves, and it’s really cool, and she enters a surf competition and all. But on the other hand, she does learn this resiliency that life will hit you with all kinds of turbulent changes, but if you learn how to go with it, if you learn how to deal with it and surf it, you’ll be okay.

Bianca Schulze

Absolutely. I do love the way the ocean and surfing really do become a metaphor for the sort of metamorphosis that she goes through. So, I’m glad you touched on that. Well, let’s go into the next character I want to talk about, which is Maudie’s dad. And, I mean, if I could be like any book parent, I would want to try my best to be like Maudie’s dad. So, talk to us about him.

Sally J. Pla

He was a teen father. Maudie’s parents had her when they were still in high school, just graduating very, very young, and that’s part of the problem. And they tried to make a go of it, but they were just too young and too different, and they separated very early. But her dad is just a very gentle, really kind of salt of the earth, very kind, quiet man. He is a really talented woodworker and carpenter, and so he’s very creative, and he basically built by hand his own little cabin up in the mountains. And that’s where Marty usually spends summers with him every summer in this beautiful, lovingly created little cabin with her dad, who’s very kind and sweet and thoughtful and respectful about her behaviors and her needs and really gets her. He just gets her. So, yeah, he’s great.

Bianca Schulze

Yes. All right. And now let’s go on to Maudie’s mom, Grace.

Sally J. Pla

And now for a completely different character. There’s Maudie’s mother, who is, again, a teen mom with parents that were very strict and basically threw her out when she got pregnant and did not help her and was all on her own and just really had a very hard go of it. Very kind of fierce personality striving with poverty and really difficult issues there, holding down different jobs, working as a nail tech, a makeup cosmetologist. She’s very much concerned with the surface look of things and trying to be trying to attain the look of somebody that is doing well. And she has a YouTube channel at this point.

She’s remarried now. There’s a new stepfather in the picture for Maudie, and this new stepfather is wealthy enough to provide them security, and she can buy pretty clothes, and she has a ton of makeup. And she has this YouTube channel called Living with Grace, where she gives tutorials on talks about makeup and appearance and things like that. But every April, which is Autism Awareness Month, she uses Maudie, exploits Maudie, really, to make a series of videos about being an autism mom. And she comes into Maudie’s room with a camera, candidly, without permission, while Maudie’s sleeping, and says to her 200,000 followers, see, this is what she does. She wraps herself in a blanket and she wedges herself against the wall. She slept this way every night since she was a little kid, things like that. That is really exploitative and really difficult.

Bianca Schulze

All right, well, we can’t not talk about Ron. I don’t want to talk about Ron, Maudie’s stepfather, but we have to talk about Ron. So, what should we know about Ron?

Sally J. Pla

Oh, goodness, he is a menace from the minute she meets him. He’s big. He’s an ex-football player. He’s built very intimidatingly large to her, and he’s bald. He always wears a big gold ring on his finger and the American flag pin in his lapel because he thinks it’s good for business, and he’s a successful business guy, and he’s just like a bull that wants his way and charges forward and cares only about what he needs, and he just does not get Maddie. And this is his first experience with kids. And he loves Maudie’s mom very much, loves her, and just wants to treat her well, but he just does not get Maudie.

So, once they all move in together, they clash, and this miscommunication and this clashing, he can’t control his anger, and he gets violent against her, either. She calls him the Red Hulk because it’s like when he gets angry, it creeps up on him. Like she can see the red flush up through his face, and it’s like he turns into the Hulk, kind of. But she calls him the Red Hulk. And, yeah, it’s very frightening. And she has some difficult experiences, but they’re all told in flashbacks, and it’s nothing that a middle schooler couldn’t handle. I wanted to put all of the scenes with Ron sort of with that buffer, with that little sense of distance, that they are all something that have happened in the past that she’s processing now from a safe place. So, I think that’s important to say, too. Absolutely.

Bianca Schulze

And I just think the way you delivered it all is done so safely and tangibly. So, I think you handled it so beautifully. Before we sidestep from the characters onto the themes, I just want to give a shout-out to your character Etta because I wish that she was real and that I wish that she was in my life. The stories and the wisdom that she shares with Maudie are right up my alley. I particularly liked— I think one of my favorite parts of the book was when she shares the story about the monk and the empty boat. I had not ever heard. Is that something you came up with, or is that like a tale that has been passed down for centuries? But it was such an AHA moment for me when I read that part.

Sally J. Pla

Yeah, I’ve known that story for a really long time, and I looked online to try to see where it originally came from and came up with multiple sources. So, I guess it’s a story that has been around or told sort of like a parable for a while. It was either Thitch Nhat Hahn, or it could have been the Dalai Lama. Maybe in reading one of those two, I think that I might have found it online when I was looking for sources. Yeah, it’s just about how you deal with people having anger attacks on you. How do you deal with that? If that’s something in your life and you feel like you’re walking on eggshells all the time, and it affects your self-esteem if somebody’s being that way to you, I hope nobody has somebody like that in their life.

But if you do and, in my past, I have had someone like that in my life, several experiences like that, and it’s very helpful to know that it’s not you. If they’re unable to respond in a kind human way to a situation, or they lose their gasket in, like, a major way all the time on you, it’s them. It’s something inside them that they’re not able to process right. And it’s just coming out. So, it’s a parable that sort of gets at it’s a way for Etta to explain to Maudie that she shouldn’t feel like it’s her fault. It’s not her fault.

Bianca Schulze

Well, let’s dig into the themes you’ve tackled. Being a child of divorced parents and living between two homes in two states, Maudie’s neurodivergence and domestic and emotional abuse. So even tackling just one of these themes in a book for children and delivering it tangibly and with grace is a huge undertaking. But especially since a book for kids, in my opinion, it should leave kids feeling empowered and hopeful. But you’ve woven all of these themes, and I think you’ve done it masterfully. So, before we get into how you did it, I want to know a little bit more about the why, what, or who inspired you to tell this particular story with these particular themes.

Sally J. Pla

Well, I think the main thing here is I grew up with a dad who is kind of both of the dads in this story. I never doubted that he loved me, and his intentions were love, but he probably might even be neurodivergent himself, I think, has always struggled to communicate his thoughts really effectively. He would be very stressed. When I was a little kid, and I was a very challenging little kid like Maudie, I had behaviors. I was not an easy child. I was very complex and difficult, and we clashed. We just clashed. And he would become that red Hulk. He would get so angry, and he would yell and scream at me, and he would tell me that I was nothing and just really horrible things. And it really did affect my self-esteem a lot.

My dad is 90 now, and he’s not that person anymore. And we’ve gone through a big journey. It’s taken me a long time to process that original trauma and hurt because it was trauma, and it was hurt. And I think this book was a way for me to process that a lot. And my wish that it doesn’t happen to any other kid and that wish that there’s somebody that you can talk to, I gave Maudie somebody to talk to. I gave Maudie, I kind of split my dad in two, and I gave her a good dad to help her through because ultimately, I think in some way, the goodness in my dad did come through over time, and we’ve talked about it, and he’s so regretful about his young dad self where he didn’t have the skills to deal with me. We’ve talked about that.

So, I was able to work it through on my own, but only after many, many years. And it really impacted and affected my whole childhood and adolescence. It was very difficult. I guess it was my way to work through that. It really was, quite honestly. If my dad is listening, I love you, Dad. I know we’ve come through the other side. We’ve come through the other side. And he was the first to say that he regrets it and that it was wrong, and he doesn’t know why he was such an ogre. He just didn’t have the skills.

Bianca Schulze

I think that’s a lot of it, right? You know, a lot of it is that your kids don’t come with a manual, and depending on how you were raised and the inherited traumas that you’ve received, you bring that into your parenting. And it isn’t an excuse for bad behavior, but I think that’s certainly an issue for a lot of parents.

Something that I want to touch on, too, is the incredible back matter at the very end. I’m grateful for that. There’s extra autism links in there so people can learn more about it. And then, of course, the domestic and child abuse resources that are in there, which I have to imagine that there’s going to be somebody who picks up your book and reads it and not realizing that they are a Maudie and they’re going to realize that they’re a Maudie and that they don’t have to be in the situation that they’re in. And so having those resources in there, it makes my heart happy.

Sally J. Pla

Yes. And that was my wonderful editor’s idea, and we researched it together. Alexandra Cooper at Quill Tree Harper Collins. I love her so much, so she helped me put that together. It is really important, and I think there are more Maudies out there than we realize. And especially for kids that have any type of disability, whether it’s an invisible disability like autism or something, a physical disability. These kids experience abuse at rates, according to studies, that are up to ten times more often than how it happens to even just neurotypical or more typical kids that any child has to deal with. It is just intolerable, but it’s especially an issue for kids that are complex or challenging.

So, yeah, it really was important to write about, and we’re making it sound like this really serious abuse book, but it isn’t. It’s a very light touch, and it’s very accessible and approachable, and all of that has happened in the past, and she’s in a place. The book is a story of empowerment and processing and overcoming and growing.

Bianca Schulze

Yes, absolutely. Since we’ve talked a lot about the hotter themes, let’s talk about the joyfulness of what it feels like for her to discover this new talent of surfing. And I think I read it. I don’t know where I read it. Was it in your Acknowledgment or on your website? But you don’t surf yourself. But I don’t surf either. I have tried to surf. I grew up on the northern beaches of Sydney and Australia. I’ve spent a little bit of time living in California, and there’s a lot of similarities. And I just think you wrote the surfing part so well. So, talk to me about that.

Sally J. Pla

All right, well, when I was young, I did used to windsurf a lot. I had my own windsurfs, and I would go out and do that, and I loved it. I loved being on the board, and I’ll do stand-up paddle, but I’ve tried surfing, and I’m terrible. There’s, like, no way I can do that. And I’m old now, too. I don’t have the knees for that kind of stuff, but oh, I love it. I love to watch the surfers. I’ll just go sometimes and park by the beach and just watch them. It’s just so graceful and so amazing, and I just get such a vicarious thrill from watching them.

And then, of course, my sons and my husband, they surf, and I have a brother-in-law that’s a surf maniac. He’s always out there. So, it’s in our family culture. It’s talked about and. I also have an amazing friend who is partly the inspiration for Etta, the character of Etta, who is the surf guru who teaches Maudie how to surf. And my friend Janet is just amazing. She’s a Southern California girl from the get-go who’s been a lifeguard and a lifelong surfer. And she does go down to Baja California and surf every year, every chance she gets, actually. She read the book for me, actually. And she made sure that all the surfing stuff I got was right. Mistakes are mine. But she helped me a lot.

Bianca Schulze

Even the descriptions of when they’re finding a beginner board for Maudie and just the description of the names of the different boards were. And I forgot that a fish was the name for a smaller board. And anyway, so I was like, yes, the details are here. So, if you were a surfer reading it yourself as a kid, it felt like you had it. It was great. And if you weren’t, you were learning if you didn’t know about surfing. So, I loved those details. I knew enough to know that you had the details right. So, I had assumed as I was reading it that you were actually a surfer based on the small knowledge that I have. So then when I read that you don’t surf yourself, I was like, I wouldn’t have guessed that.

Sally J. Pla

Well, I’ve kind of marinated in it, living in Southern California with a surfing family. So hopefully that I get it enough, right? And it’s partly because I so love it, and I just wish I could. But me— just physically incapable.

Bianca Schulze

But for me, growing up by the ocean, I was a kid born in the late 70s. And I’m a kid of the 80s; girls weren’t really encouraged to surf. But then there’s a wave of girls just a couple of years younger than me, and they all surfed. And I felt like I had missed my boat, but now I know I haven’t. I could still learn to surf if I wanted to, but I wasn’t encouraged to. So, I love that Maudie is a female protagonist that takes on learning to surf. So that was a win for me too. Well, the writing itself is a blend of prose and free verse. So, what went into the decision to write it that way?

Sally J. Pla

It just sort of naturally evolved that way. And I think it came just from the way Maudie thinks because it’s all very deeply in her first person, and she is a girl with glitches is how she describes herself, where her thought processes are a little bit slower. Sometimes it feels like when she listens to other people; it’s like when a film’s audio is just a little bit off from the visual. So, for her, too, her thought processes sometimes come in glitches or little fits and starts. And so writing in a combination of prose and verse, it just seemed to make sense. It just seems like the way she would think.

Bianca Schulze

Yeah. Well, would you be willing to share a highlight from the book? Or, if we’re really lucky if you have a copy handy, would you read a section?

Sally J. Pla

I do have a copy here. I didn’t earmark any section to read specifically but let me see.

What would be good?

Okay, well, here’s a little one. Okay, I have a little section. Okay, here’s a section, and it’s right after; well, it takes Maudie a little while to work up the courage to ask Etta to teach her to surf. She’s been watching Etta on the beach for days and days, and she’s had a few little close-run-ins where she said, I want to learn to surf. And then Etta said, here, then jump on my board. Here, I’ve got a minute. You want. Get on Maddie’s like. Oh, no, I can’t. She kind of can’t deal with it. So, it’s a section like that. And this is Etta saying, here’s my board. Get on the board.

Go on, Etta urges. My body’s frozen up like a statue. Too much, too fast. Etta sighs. Well, you’re a shy little shorebird, aren’t you? What’s your name again? Maudie, I whisper. You’re like those little sand plovers, running up to the edge of things, then running away again. I nod. She’s not wrong. Maybe next time, right? See you around, she calls, and then she’s gone, paddling away. Ugh. Just ugh. I’m so mad, I smack myself on the head.

I want to tell her I’m sorry, explain that I’m a girl with glitches, deep wishes, but sometimes glitches. I can’t help the glitches. And now the shame words are back. They pool inside my brain. As I watch Etta paddle away, I hear the shame words in Mom’s voice. Ron’s voice, Mrs. Jill’s voice, my own voice. Incapable. More challenged than she realizes. Ridiculous. Invisibly disabled. Slow. Can’t process. Too sensitive. Spacey. Can’t break out of her own little world. Ugh. Just ugh.

Bianca Schulze

For someone who didn’t have a section marked in the book to read, I feel like that was such a great example. I’m glad you picked that one. Thanks for reading it. They say to be a writer, that you need to be a reader first. Do you agree with that? And if so, was there a pivotal moment in which you considered yourself a reader?

Sally J. Pla

Personally, I was always a reader. I still remember the moment I learned to read. I was sitting on my grandmother’s lap. I was probably four. It was a little early, and it was boat, goat coat, and oh, my God, you change the first letter, and it becomes a different word. And there’s a picture of a goat and a coat, and I get it. It was like I still remember that. And I never stopped reading after that. I loved it. I loved it because I loved stories so much. I couldn’t really quite process what was going on with the people around me. Reading stories was a way that I could, in my own quiet sort of bubble, understand a little bit more about the world and how people worked.

And so, stories were so special to me and a huge reader. But I don’t think you necessarily have to be a reader to be a writer. But I think you do have to love stories and have a sense of them and have a passion for them as a way to help people view the world, whether it’s stories through amazing storytelling, video games, or whether it’s stories, films that you like or it doesn’t matter what form they take, really. But that love of storytelling and stories.

Bianca Schulze

Yeah. Well, we recently had author and illustrator Kaz Windness on the show, and she’s also neurodivergent late diagnosed with autism. And we talked about how people with autism often have highly focused interests. So I loved, as a reader and a writer, that Maudie’s special interests are reading and writing. And then, obviously, she took on surfing, so she spent some time reading Jane Eyre. So, I’m curious about the significance of why you picked Jane Eyre for one of her books to be read. I would love listeners to hear that.

Sally J. Pla

Because Jane Eyre, especially the beginning pages of Jane Eyre, where she talks about being really the odd kid out who’s bullied and picked on, who the other kids that belong to the family. And she’s just sort of been taken in by this wealthy family, right? And the other children do not accept her. And she’s put down, and she’s picked on, and she’s othered. And that just seemed to me to be something that would draw Maudie in, that she would relate to, because she’s always been a bit othered herself. So, I thought that might be a good choice.

And also, the big— not that there’s any direct relationship, but of course, thematically, Jane air, there’s a massive fire that changes the whole course of the book. And in Maudie, it’s sort of the same, even though they’re completely different kinds. But I thought, well, there’s a little connection there. So, I don’t know. I guess those were the reasons that it first occurred to me. Also, I loved that book. When I was around her age, I read it, and I just absolutely loved it was very life-changing for me.

Bianca Schulze

Yes. Well, is there anything important that you think we need to know about the book that maybe we haven’t touched on? Because we’ve touched on the characters, we’ve touched on the themes, we’ve touched on the writing. Is there anything else you think we need to touch on?

Sally J. Pla

Oh, my goodness. I guess I keep thinking it’s so silly with marketing books, which is my least help. Not the thing that I like the best about writing books is marketing, but all those hashtags that you have to come up with, and I’m thinking, oh, hashtags, middle-grade literature, hashtags, whatever, but girl power and empowerment, it just struck me those are really my hashtags. This is a book about empowerment and coming into your own and overcoming the obstacles. And that’s part of it too. That’s the whole reason for it is the hope and the coming through of it and learning that she’s stronger than she ever thought she could be.

And that’s really the message, that you can be stronger than you ever thought you could be, and the situation can be as dire as it can be. But you know what? It’s not going to stay that way. Things change. The scenery always changes. On your journey through life, there’s always another wave. You just have to take it one at a time. All those lessons of encouragement and understanding and learning to be more resilient and learning that, yeah, life is hard, but we can have what it takes; we can do it. And that’s just where I wanted to leave the readers. My readers. So, yeah, I hope that comes through.

Bianca Schulze

I can say that it 100% does come through. You did an amazing job on this story. Well, I also want to know before we go, are you working on any new projects or any other books we should know about?

Sally J. Pla

I am, actually. I have another book for younger readers. It’s sort of like an early chapter book coming out with Harper Collins, UK Big Cat. It’s called? It’s called Ada and Zaz. And it’s about two kids that are neurodivergent in completely different ways, a sensory seeker and a sensory avoider. And they become best friends living across the hall in a little apartment building. So that’s coming out in the fall. And then I’ve got a book with Harper Collins with Quill Tree Harper Collins in 2024. And it’s called Invisible Isabel. It’s about another girl, and I’m working on the one after that, which is going to be kind of a Romeo and Juliet retelling.

Bianca Schulze

That sounds fun.

Sally J. Pla

I just did want to mention one other thing, and that is I also run a website called anovelmind.com, and it’s a resource for mental health and neurodiversity representation in children’s literature. So, the website has three parts. There’s a weekly blog, although we take some time off in the summer, of guest writers that write on subjects of mental health and neurodiversity representation and their books. And there’s book reviews and just all kinds of things.

There’s also resource pages that were put together by Adriana White, who’s an autistic librarian in Texas, and she did an amazing job collecting all kinds of resources for parents, families, and teachers. And there’s also a database with over 1000 books that is searchable by category, so it can try to help you match up the right book for the right kid.

Bianca Schulze

Yeah, it’s an incredible database, and I wasn’t going to leave our conversation today without asking you about it. So, I’m going to put the link in the show notes for anybody that wants to go and check out a novel mind and obviously links to your latest book and your website, so those will all be there. I just have loved having this conversation, and you’ve spoken so beautifully about your book, and I think everything you’ve said about it, I felt.

And I love the girl power message in it. Like I said, I was never encouraged to surf. I could walk myself to the beach, but yet nobody ever suggested it to me. I don’t know why I didn’t ask. But anyway, I love that.

I love the empowerment; I love the way you tackled the adversity that she has to go through. You did it so delicately and gracefully. So, thank you for writing this. I think it’s going to be a phenomenal read for whichever kind of kid comes to this book. And I want you to have the final words. If there was one thing that our listeners took away from everything we’ve talked about today, what would you want that one thing to be?

Sally J. Pla

Oh, my goodness. Well, I’m just thinking about those wonderful words that you just said, but part of what you just said is when you wanted to surf when you were young, you didn’t know why. You didn’t ask. And girls don’t often ask, do they? We wait, and we see, and we’re too hesitant and, well, a lot of boys, too. But I would just say the message that I would like kids to come away from this and adult readers, too, everybody is ask, ask. Reach out for your dreams. Reach out for what you want to do. Don’t be afraid, and know that it’s within your grasp, and you can do it.

Bianca Schulze

Yes. Thank you. Thank you, Sally, for being on the show today. I have loved every second of it.

Sally J. Pla

Same. Bianca, thank you for your wonderful questions and all the lovely things you said. Thank you so much.

The transcription has been lightly edited for readability.

About the Book

Publisher’s Book Summary: Neurodivergent Maudie is ready to spend an amazing summer with her dad, but will she find the courage to tell him a terrible secret about life with her mom and new stepdad? This contemporary novel by the award-winning author of The Someday Birds is a must-read for fans of Leslie Connor and Ali Standish.

Maudie always looks forward to the summers she spends in California with her dad. But this year, she must keep a troubling secret about her home life—one that her mom warned her never to tell. Maudie wants to confide in her dad about her stepdad’s anger, but she’s scared.

When a wildfire strikes, Maudie and her dad are forced to evacuate to the beach town where he grew up. It’s another turbulent wave of change. But now, every morning, from their camper, Maudie can see surfers bobbing in the water. She desperately wants to learn, but could she ever be brave enough?

As Maudie navigates unfamiliar waters, she makes friends—and her autism no longer feels like the big deal her mom makes it out to be. But her secret is still threatening to sink her. Will Maudie find the strength to reveal the awful truth—and maybe even find some way to stay with Dad—before summer is over?

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Show Notes

Sally J. Pla is an award-winning author of books for young people, including the novels The Someday Birds and Stanley Will Probably Be Fine, and the picture book Benji, The Bad Day, And Me. Her newest novel for ages 10 and up is The Fire, The Water, and Maudie McGinn.

She believes in the beauty of different brains and that we are all stars shining with different lights. And she also runs anovelmind.com (A Novel Mind), the web resource uplifting honest, helpful mental health and neurodiversity representation in children’s lit.

Resources:

You can visit Sally J. Pla online at www.sallyjpla.com.

Visit anovelmind.com, a site about mental health and neurodiversity in children’s literature.

Discussion Topics:

• The premise of The Fire, the Water, and Maudie McGinn and how it fits with Sally’s mission
• Sally discusses the struggle of sustaining focus and shares her secret weapon, a particular software, to block distractions.
• She explains how her mission to populate children’s literature with neurodivergent characters came about through her own experiences with her neurodivergent children and a health emergency that refocused her priorities.
• The importance of reading about characters who are different from oneself to broaden empathy and understanding.
• Sally describes the character of Maudie as a girl who cares about others and wants to be accepted and loved and learns to surf as a metaphor for learning resiliency in the face of life’s challenges.
• Inherited traumas that parents bring into their parenting and the resources included in the book.
• How the combination of prose and verse in the book was a natural evolution based on Maudie’s thought processes
• The message of empowerment and resilience in The Fire, the Water, and Maudie McGinn.

Thank you for listening to the Growing Readers Podcast episode: Sally J. Pla Talks About Her Novel ‘The Fire, the Water, and Maudie McGinn’. For the latest episodes from The Growing Readers Podcast, Follow Now on Spotify.