A podcast interview with Nyasha Williams and Kenda Bell-Spruill discussing Saturday Magic: A Hoodoo Story on The Growing Readers Podcast, a production of The Children’s Book Review.
Join us for an enlightening conversation with Nyasha Williams and Kenda Bell-Spruill, co-authors of Saturday Magic: A Hoodoo Story (Running Press Kids).
This mother-in-love and daughter-in-love duo discuss their collaboration on this groundbreaking picture book that introduces young readers to African diasporic spiritual practices and ancestral connections. The episode offers a deep dive into the power of intergenerational storytelling and the magic of connecting with one’s ancestors, providing valuable perspectives for parents, educators, and anyone interested in diverse children’s literature.
Discover the inspiration behind their story, the importance of representation in children’s literature, and how Saturday Magic aims to foster pride in cultural heritage. The authors share personal insights into their creative process, the significance of dreams in African American culture, and their hopes for expanding diverse narratives in children’s media.
This episode offers a deep dive into the power of intergenerational storytelling and the magic of connecting with one’s ancestors, providing valuable perspectives for parents, educators, and anyone interested in diverse children’s literature.
Nyasha Williams and Kenda Bell-Spruill Talk About:
- The inspiration behind writing Saturday Magic: A Hoodoo Story
- The importance of representation in children’s literature
- Kenda and Nyasha’s experiences as readers and how it shaped their writing
- Introduction to Hoodoo practices and African ancestral traditions
- The significance of dreams in African American culture and spirituality
- How to connect with ancestors and build stronger ancestral relationships
- Critique of current representation of Black characters in Disney films and animation
- The process of collaborating as mother-in-law and daughter-in-law
- Nyasha’s new publishing company, Fire + Honey Press, and its mission
- How Saturday Magic: A Hoodoo Story can foster pride and connection to ancestral roots for young Black readers
Listen to the Episode
Read the Transcription
Bianca Schulze: Well, hello, Nyasha. Welcome back to The Growing Readers Podcast. I love a second-time guest.
Nyasha Williams: Thank you for having me. I’m excited to be here.
Bianca Schulze: I love your new book, Saturday Magic: A Hoodoo Story. So if you don’t mind, I just want to read your little dedication at the beginning of the book.
It says, “To the diaspora, may you always be aligned with ancestral abundance. May you see what the old folks say and traditions of black mysticism as ancestral connection and wisdom. To my mother in love, grateful to be your daughter, and thank you for working with me on the first of many.”
So why don’t you go ahead and introduce your amazing mother-in-love?
Nyasha Williams: Yeah, I’m so excited that my mother-in-love’s in the space. Her name is Kenda Bell-Spruill and I love her. I was like, people always talk about how in-law relationships can be so complicated, and I have been so blessed to have such a smooth, beautiful relationship with my mother-in-love. And it’s just flowed so naturally and I’m just always grateful. She’s amazing. She’s a powerhouse, doing amazing things in the world. She has been the rock in relation to my spiritual walk. Like, especially when I had my most recent spiritual awakening, I was kind of flailing, and she really was my elder and my resource and my mentor through all of that. So welcome to the space.
Bianca Schulze: Hi, Kenda. Welcome.
Kenda Bell-Spruill: Oh, wow. Hello. Thank you so much for having me.
Nyasha, I appreciate that intro. I always tell everyone how much I love you. You are my daughter-in-love and you have enriched my life. And you are such a great steward over the blessing that I gave to this world in my son. And so I have no choice but to support you and to love you. And for you, inviting me on this project to be a part of is something amazing. And I’m so thankful and grateful to be on this project with you. And you are a powerhouse for sure.
Bianca Schulze: I feel so lucky to get to just experience this live right now. So I know that… Well, actually, something I often ask on this show is they say you must be a reader first to be a writer. Now, that’s not necessarily per se, but I tend to agree with it for the most part. So I would love it if you would both share a story of a pivotal moment when you considered yourself a reader and maybe elaborate on how these experiences shaped your journeys as readers and writers. And, Kenda, would you mind going first?
Kenda Bell-Spruill: Sure. So, because I am 54 and I have read a lot of different books, both fiction and nonfiction. And so when I think about that question, I have different books that all jump in my head. But the one that I would say really was so vibrant for me was Sula. All right. And Sula is by Toni Morrison. And that is a book that really talks about sisterhood, femininity, black culture in the south. And that began my quest to start seeing images of myself in books. I started that. I think I read that probably in high school, and I didn’t even know who Toni Morrison was.
And that’s when I started finding out about Alice Walker and all these other black authors. James Baldwin is another person that I didn’t even understand or knew about until he passed away when I was in high school, and I didn’t understand how significant he was to literature. And I think for obvious types of reasons, in black community, he got lost because he was gay, and his… His work was very pivoting. Amen Corner. I suggest that people really get Notes of a Native Son. These are things that ignited me to not only write because I am a fiction authorization initially, but to really examine my study of culture in America.
Bianca Schulze: I think that’s such a great response, because we’re going to touch on this a lot about just how important being able to see yourself, and also understanding about where you came from, your past, because you can’t understand your future or even make progressive movements into the future without understanding who you are and who your ancestors are. So we’re going to touch a lot on this. So thank you for that amazing answer. And then, Nyasha, what about you? What’s a pivotal moment that you want to share today?
Nyasha Williams: Yeah, I think when you asked me that question, I feel like I think about just my reader journey from when I was really young till now and what I read now in relation to what I was reading in college and what I was reading growing up. I know I loved reading as a kid. I was actually… My parents had interesting ways to get us our allowance as kids, and I was the one child who did not get rewarded for reading because I loved doing it. Whereas my other siblings would get allowance for reading, I had other ways I would have to get my allowance. So I loved reading. So that was never an issue on my side. I remember the American Girl doll books. I loved Addy. I remember, you know, my first book with my name in it, which was Mufaro’s Beautiful Daughters. And thankfully, I was the nice daughter in the book.
But I, um… Yeah, just think about how everything evolved. I know when I was growing up, I loved books that had female protagonists. I feel like those were less common, and especially in magical books, because I loved magic and fantasy books like Artemis Fowl comes to mind, and specific books, you know, Harry Potter at the time, all these different books, but I, again, there wasn’t often a female protagonist or main character (MC)); and again, person of color, non-existent. Person being black, non-existent.
So, you know, I’m glad the way things are evolving. And I think it’s so great to be able to sit in books that are able to give me what I was really looking for when I was younger because I do a lot of audiobooks for YA and re-listening to these stories that, oh, my gosh, they would have given to my soul when I was a younger child and looking for magical and fantasy that looked like me.
Bianca Schulze: Yes. All right, well, let me ask this question, and it’s kind of an obvious question, but I have to ask it. So what inspired you both to write a children’s book centered around Hoodoo and African ancestral traditions? And why was it essential for you to share these practices with young readers?
Nyasha Williams: Okay. I really have a lot of ideas for children’s books. Honestly, too many. And I love co-authoring because I feel like it just brings a different level of richness to work. You have other people’s eyes, other people’s lenses, and just such a beautiful collaboration, and I don’t know, it’s this beautiful weaving that comes together in those kinds of collaborations. And I have been looking to write books in relation to where my spiritual shift had gone, because I feel like I was experiencing so many new things in relation to my blackness and in connection with my ancestors, and I feel like one, like my mother-in-love and I talk often about how there really is not a ton of representation visually for the black community in relation to ancestral veneration.
So working with your ancestors, honoring your ancestors. Yeah. So our community really has no visuals in that way. You have to kind of really dig for them in older films and movies and things, but there’s very little for the younger generation. And so my mother-in-law and I started in this place when I asked her to come on, I said, let’s write something. And we were thinking about some of the deities that we work with. That’s where we had originally thought, but then we just started thinking about our daily spiritual practices and structuring a story around that.
And so that’s what Dayo’s, like, life experiences in the book in Saturday Magic: A Hoodoo Story is her going through her day and doing a lot of the things we do at home in our spiritual practices. And it was cool to write with her because, first of all, there’s the generational blend of both of us. We have this, like, very different vibes and things, which is always great and amazing. And then also it’s this aspect of, like, her bringing in what she does at home and things that I do. And, you know, we all do things a little different in relation to protection of our home, in relation to cleansing, in relation to honoring the ancestors. And so it’s a beautiful blend of our ancestral practices that we do at home.
Bianca Schulze: All right, well, I have a question for you, Kenda. So in case some listeners are unfamiliar with the Hoodoo practice, would you like to provide a quick Hoodoo 101 lesson? Nyasha sent me this amazing article, and I read, and it’s such a fascinating practice that I would not do it justice giving everybody a 101. So, Kenda, why don’t you share it?
Kenda Bell-Spruill: No problem. So, first of all, Hoodoo is really a cultural thing, and I think that Americans of African or indigenous, there’s a debate about that, but we’ll talk about that another day. Origin practice, it is a combination of ancestor veneration, not worship veneration, which are totally two different things, herbal health and healing energy, moving environmental space energy. It’s a spiritual system as well that also borrows from Christianity, African-based spiritual systems. Now, in dealing with the ancestors in general, the black community actively doing it is more so done in the Yoruba system that some people practice.
But in terms of the black American Christian home, it’s not openly done, but it has always been done. Psalms are often used for healing to bring some money, to turn away the enemy, quote unquote enemy. The way that we wipe down walls and clean things to release energy, Hoodoo is spiritual and also practical. This is showing the ingenuity and the power and the majesty of people that didn’t have quote unquote much, but they had an abundance of energy, and they were able to find the herbs in this strange land that could heal them. They were able to bring things from home that they had learned and implemented here.
And as time has gone on and we have evolved, some of the origins have been lost, but the practices still show up quite often. Hope I answered your question.
Bianca Schulze: Yeah, I think that was great. And, Nyasha, did you want to add anything?
Nyasha Williams: I mean, I would just say, like, really blanketly that it really has to do with, you know, as a people coming to this, being taken from our country and brought to this country. It was our way of coming back into our power, and it was a way of ingenuity within ourselves. And like my mother-in-law said, we weren’t allowed to practice things that weren’t Christianity. We would literally be killed on the plantations if that was the choice. If they saw us practicing anything but Christianity, they were told, you need to make your slaves Christian. So we had to shift.
You’ll notice in a lot of different BIPOC cultures, they have hidden their spiritual practices within other spiritual practices, like the Catholic Church or within Christian movements, because, like, for example, we think about spiritual baths is something that we practice a lot in our spiritual practices as doing ancestral veneration, doing Hoodoo, doing ATRs, which is the African traditional religions. But you see it in the church, too, right? Through baptisms and through these washings. When you read about Jesus’s feet being washed, all these different things, it’s like it comes back around, and it’s like we were able to keep our traditions and things that we did alive through, you know, this hidden in plain sight. With using religion as that cover.
Bianca Schulze: Yeah. So I think that something Kenda said that really stood out from the article that you had sent me, Nyasha, was, I love the… There’s so much talk about the ancestors in Hoodoo, and I love learning about, it’s not a worship. It’s the veneration. It’s the having… What’s the word I’m looking for? It’s holding the people that came before you in reverence. Because I feel like the word worship is that somebody could do no wrong. Right, and no human ever makes it through from birth to death perfect. You know, there’s always mistakes. So I love that you use those words of veneration versus worship of the ancestors, and we’re going to go more into ancestors soon.
But, Nyasha, I have an interesting question for you, because you’ve lived in both the US and South Africa, so I want to know how your experiences in both places have shaped your perspective and influenced the story you wanted to tell in Saturday Magic: A Hoodoo Story.
Nyasha Williams: Yeah. I mean, there’s so much to say when you look at South Africa and the United States. And it’s interesting because, you know, because I move differently within my spiritual practices now with honoring my ancestors, with moving with them, with moving with them intentionally and consciously, and also being in my blackness. I was not in my blackness and identifying as a black woman first when I was in South Africa. So the experience is very different when I, like, reflect back and I look back. But I will say that there’s things that I didn’t understand that, like, I’m like, oh, if I went back, I would be very curious to have better understanding. An example of sangomas in South Africa. Those are different spiritual workers in South Africa, and I would love to understand their systems more and things that I heard about and also heard about in fear, I… And in people being wary of these kinds of people, but not that understanding.
And I think, again, we see this present here in the states of people being fearful of people, confusing Hoodoo and voodoo. They are not the same people fearing, working with their ancestors. Oh, that’s not godly. Oh, that’s evil. This and that. And it’s like, no, it’s like we’ve been trained and we have been indoctrinated into believing that. And it’s so… a lot of us now, thankfully, are starting to shed those Hollywood fronts for us and the ways that we’re supposed to view our spiritual practices, the way we move our culture, the way that it was portrayed to us, and really stepping into our power, our confidence, and moving in new ways within the culture and just what feels correct to us.
I was like, I know for me, church was a hard place. It just did not feel aligned. I felt like I was reciting things I didn’t understand. And I think part of that is understanding the power in those words. There is power when you’re in a group and you’re all saying the same thing and you’re reciting things. And so not understanding that is an issue. I feel like you need to walk in conscious veneration. Conscious because when you are in church, you are venerating. You’re venerating Jesus. You’re venerating God. You’re venerating whoever we’re talking about or whatever we’re discussing in those spaces.
And so I feel like, for me, I feel like I’m just moving in a different place with the now because I’m moving in it consciously. And that’s important to me as I recognize, just have more understanding in the world. As I step into my blackness fully, as I grow in my blackness, as I develop my relationships with my ancestors, I feel like it’s one of those things where I never even thought in South Africa, I wasn’t even in the place of thinking about working with my ancestors or what that would even look like. Or that connection. And it’s just really insane because that seems very obvious relationship that you’d want to have. And that’s been something really beautiful to walk into. And I think at the beginning confusing being a transracial adoptee. Like, who do I talk to? Right?
But here we are, and it’s just been so healing and affirming and, like, life giving and just really allowing me to be rerouted. I feel like your ancestors allow you to become rooted again. There’s this rerooting that we’re looking for a coming home, as I like to say.
Kenda Bell-Spruill: So what I love about my daughter is that she is always curious. She’s always asking questions. And I always tell people that the way for you to stay young and keep your skin clear is to be curious and to ask questions. Never be so old that you think you know everything. Because the world is always changing. The world is always growing. And when we talk about the ancestors’ traditions and the practices, every time that we go, like, a generation, the generation, the youth or the younger carry on those traditions, but they also add their own, as we say, ashe, or the blessing to it. And the elders, such as myself, I am 54. The elders, we have to start allowing the merging and the transfer of those things because there’s healing that is needed. And I’m so thankful to be able to support her in getting rooted in who she is and all the aspects of who she is through this project.
Bianca Schulze: I love that. Well, Kenda, as a lifestyle coach, you help women tap into their personal magic and their ancestral wisdom. So, first of all, Nyasha’s lucky to have someone like you in her life. We could all do with someone like you. So what are some key lessons or messages from your work as a lifestyle coach that you hope come through in Saturday Magic: A Hoodoo Story?
Kenda Bell-Spruill: Oh, wow. That’s a great question. So one of the things is that I never imagined I would be doing a children’s book. I just never saw it. So when I thought about it, I was like, well, I coach women and adults, and, I mean, they might buy the book, but I don’t know, because she’s, like, the best-selling children’s book author. And so what I want people to see is their little girl activated. And even if you are a man that identifies as a man or whatever, I’m still learning. So please be patient with me. Kenda here, doing her best. Okay? So I want to be respectful terms. I want them to be able to see the magic of youth, to recapture their genius, to be brave enough to be curious, to ask questions, to investigate, and to also remember and know and identify that the ancestors have always been with them, been carrying them, and opening up doors and black people in general to believe this.
And we have no shame. We talk about the ancestors, what we have to do for them, but we’re not necessarily open about the practice. So we’re hoping… I’m hoping that as we put this children’s book in the hands of the little ones and their parents, that these things will start changing. So that when I’m telling women how to tap into their personal magic, they get it and their little ones and their children are watching it so that there’s less work for these types of things to be done of, quote unquote, the generational curses. I want us to start creating generational cures.
Bianca Schulze: Yeah. Yeah. Well, Saturday Magic: A Hoodoo Story beautifully depicts the everyday rituals and practices that this specific family engages in, from sweeping out old energy to making offerings at an ancestral altar. So, Nyasha, why don’t you answer this question? How did you decide which specific traditions that you wanted to showcase in Saturday Magic: A Hoodoo Story?
Nyasha Williams: Yeah, I mean, there’s a lot. And this is where I would say, my mother-in-love and I have always envisioned Saturday Magic: A Hoodoo Story as a series. That’s what we tried to pitch it to the publisher, and that’s what we still envision it as, because there are so many things and experiences Dayo can go through in relation to her discovering her relationship with her ancestors and that connection. And so we see it’s just this evolution of all these different places. We’ve written two other Dayo books that were like, they’re ready to go when we’re ready. Like, anyone else is ready, we’re ready. So it was challenging.
I think what we did was we wrote a list of a bunch of different practices that make, like, that stand out for us, that are important to us. And we thought about starting the day from waking up to the end of the day, and, like, what would fit in in relation to that. Altars are an important one. I think a lot of people, again, are comfortable with things under the guise of the church or if it’s in the church. Right. But then when it comes to those practices, being at home or outside the church, especially an altar, that people start getting a little uncomfortable or feeling some way. But I’m like, there’s altars all the time. It’s like a hidden in plain sight. They are always around us. Right? Whether we label them that way.
Yes. I mean, even just if you have a photo of a person who has passed away, that’s in your family and you have a watch there and some letter they wrote you or a photo, you know, just whatever you create, you are creating altars, and that’s venerating them by having that photo up. I think, you know, this is where I said that there’s not really beautiful visuals for the black community in doing this, especially for children.
But we look at, like, Coco, for example, that film is so beautifully depicts these altars, how they’re in people’s homes, how they’re everyday practice, how they are venerating their ancestors, how it’s important to have their photo up. Like, that was the huge deal in the whole film, right? Was the photo needs to be there for them to be able to come visit. Right. And they make it about a specific time period for the ancestors to come out and play and visit and spend time with the family.
I think that for Hoodoo and ancestral veneration, yes, there are specific days that can be a bigger celebration, but we try and have that space open more regularly and have regular interactions and time leaving plates out. Like, if we are cooking, we leave a plate out. I mean, there’s kind of this rule in the culture that if you’re cooking and some of the food falls on the floor, that is your ancestors asking for some of that. So you need to go make some space for them and make them a plate. And we say, at my house, the ancestors eat first. So we make their plate first, and then we all follow through after that.
Bianca Schulze: As we know, talking to your ancestors is a vital part of your day-to-day spiritual practices. That’s beautifully reflected in Saturday Magic: A Hoodoo Story. So for listeners who may be new to ancestral veneration, this aspect of the book could actually be particularly impactful. So can you share more about how you personally connect with your ancestors, Kenda, in your daily life, like what advice you’d give to those wanting to build a stronger ancestral relationship, and also how the book might inspire or validate readers exploring these practices?
Kenda Bell-Spruill: Sure. So I was raised in church coming up as a child, and I love church. I think church is wonderful. That’s one of the places where the ancestors love to congregate the most. You know, when people start getting the Holy Ghost or the Holy Spirit, we start shouting that’s of course, the presence of God. But this is one of the places where a lot of our most current ancestors frequent and come because that’s where they felt a lot of healing, and they also felt a lot of power and in some cases, protection as well. So I don’t… I’m not one of those people that completely tosses out church in the Bible. I think there are certain ways that we can navigate with that energy.
But to your question, breast cancer was really when it came home to me. When I was diagnosed with breast cancer in 2017, that’s when I knew I had to do more healing other than the traditional pathway to heal that. And it began with me doing a lot of self-work and tapping into my ancestors that had similar health challenges. You know, my prayers were to God. My prayers were that they would… That God would activate my DNA to start healing me. Activate the geniuses, the doctors, the nurses, the herbalists in my lineage, to activate the healing in my body. Wise, cultivated ancestors guide me to make the right choices. Be with me in the doctor’s office. Be with me as I take these herbal types of supplements and as I did that in speaking to them and creating my sacred space, giving them coffee, writing down, it’s the whole system.
That’s when I saw my tumor shrink, and it was surgically taken out, which is fine, but that’s when I know that it’s real. That’s when I knew. I always felt it was real, but that’s when I knew it was real. And so that is a part of my day, my… My daily life. Every week, they get fresh flowers every week if I don’t cook, because, you know, I’m older now, and I’ve done all my cooking for my daughter-in-love and son for many years, and I don’t have to cook like that anymore. She does it now for him too. So I may not cook every day, but I make sure they have a hot cup of coffee in the morning and some fresh water, for sure. And I offer them ancestor money as well.
Bianca Schulze: Yeah, yeah. Good. I’m glad to hear it. I’m glad to hear it. Well, Nyasha, why don’t you add, and just in terms of how the book might inspire or validate readers that want to explore these practices? Because, you know, we can all see clearly. Well, anyone listening can’t. But I’m very white, and this book was very empowering to me. I love the affirmations. I would love for my own children to look in the mirror and say the things to themselves that Dayo says to herself. So why don’t you just touch on what might inspire or validate readers that want to explore talking with the ancestors?
Nyasha Williams: Yeah, I think, obviously, we know that the main part with Dayo is that she has this dream, and it’s about figuring out the dream. And I think that’s part of the spiritual walk is we are presented with lots of different things that happen in life. And I think it’s a journey that we go on into self-discovery, in understanding, in looking for the clues. I think anyone who has had someone pass away or has been close to someone who’s passed away, generally, if you have conversations with them, they’ll be like, oh, I got this sign, or they love this bird, and this bird came down, or I always used to pick these specific flowers for them. It’s just so crazy. I got, like, someone came to my job and offered me those flowers. You know, there’s just these weird… I was like, again, people say they’re coincidences, but I don’t take them that way. I feel like it’s the universe talking to us and our ancestors talking to us. And so you got to learn…
A huge part of the understanding with your ancestors is learning how they commune to you, how they talk to you, and, like, you can shape that. You can shift that. I was like, there’s lots of ways. You know, I have my tarot deck and my oracle deck that I’ve made to help people with that, because I think that sometimes in the beginning, tools are a very easy way. But as you evolve, as you grow, as you strengthen that relationship, sometimes you just are able to shed away those tools and commune with them in a different way.
For me, when I’m telling people to start connecting with their ancestors, I will say, first of all, you’re going to start paying attention to your environment, what’s going on around you. You’ll notice things. But then I always say, connect with the elements. I say sit with the elements. Connect with the elements, feel in with an element that feels good to you and spend time and talk to that element. And that’s a very direct and easy way. So Dayo does stuff inside, outside, and in other books. We have other ways that she spends time with the ancestors and builds those connections in various ways.
Nyasha Williams: But I think another aspect that comes really clear through Saturday Magic: A Hoodoo Story is community. And that’s community and family. That’s community in her neighborhood, right. So when she’s with her family, they take care and nurture the home together. It was really important for, you know, my household is a household that everyone is contributing. You know, it’s like… And it’s not in stereotypical ways, maybe, like, you know, when we were growing up, there was this divide of men do this, females do this.
Then, like, there’s these divides. And that’s really something that I was like, this is not happening. I was told, we are not walking in like this. And so we wanted that very evident in Saturday Magic: A Hoodoo Story that, like, everyone’s contributing towards the household, everyone’s contributing the nurturing, the taking care of ourselves, the taking care of our home, and that cleansing. And so that was really important.
And then we know that Dayo was invited over to Anaya, her best friend’s house. ‘Cause Grandma Rose is visiting. And again, that’s community. That’s them connecting with an elder. The elder is preparing food for them. You know, building connection and being in community around food is a huge part of the culture and a huge part of just building those relationships, maintaining those relationships. And whenever I sit in relation of, like, what my dream experience with my ancestors would be, like, what the dream connection or, like, experience would be, I would just love this huge farm to table dinner with everybody who I like… My in-loves, my, you know, birth family, my bio family. Everyone’s at this table, and our ancestors are there, and we’re just communing and having this beautiful meal out in this beautiful field, farm to table. And that feels really great for me.
I think another space would be in water because water is so healing for me and just being in water. And so I think that part of our talk with Dayo is that every relationship with the ancestors is going to differ and be different. But I think Dayo has these guides, which are her parents, who are guiding her, but they’re also giving her space to guide as well and to learn. And even in future books, we really have Dayo kind of stepping up and teaching her parents lessons because we think that’s very important on both sides. We’re learning from our kids as they are learning from us. Right? And just like this, as she’s moving through life, having guidance, but also guiding. And I think that is the relationship with anybody in your life and your ancestors.
Nyasha Williams: And I will say your ancestors are learning from you, too. I think there were periods with me making transitions, for example, with holidays. I’ve been transitioning more to Juneteenth and Kwanzaa. And I have ancestors who probably have never heard of those holidays. I have ancestors who, you know, followed a lot of the… Yeah. You know, very highlighted Christian traditional religions and holidays and practices. And so when I started making that shift, I definitely felt ancestors who were like, what’s going on? And, like, this confusion. But it was conversation and, like, kind of them understanding that I’m figuring things out and I’m evolving, kind of like my mother-in-law said, in relation to me doing what makes sense to me and learning from them, but also adding my own ashe. And adding in my own vibes of what things are going to look like.
Bianca Schulze: I love that word, ashe.
Kenda Bell-Spruill: Can I add to that?
Bianca Schulze: Of course.
Kenda Bell-Spruill: Okay. So our book, again, is really centered on this dream. Like, what does this dream mean? And dreams… dream interpretation is very important in African American culture in general, no matter what your faith is, in my opinion. And so what I wanted to bring to this conversation is this book will also remind you, because a friend of mine who got the book, she has loved the book. She called me and she shared that she had this weird dream about being in church, and, and they were reading scriptures and they were catching the Holy Ghost, and they were so excited. And she was like, “Kenda, you know, I don’t do church. I haven’t been to church in years.” And I’m just…
And so I said, your ancestors are trying to talk to you in the language that they know. They don’t know about Eckhart Tolle, you know, they don’t know who that is. You know, they know that the binary beats feel good and it’s activating them, you understand, but they don’t really know how to communicate that. So if you keep seeing these angel numbers and you have this dream about this church, and we ended up basically, by the time we broke it down, her ancestors were communicating that she was about to be celebrating a big thing that did happen. I can’t put her business out there, but a big thing that happened. And they were foreshadowing it via the dream in the best way they knew how, by celebrating church, by tinting and giving her scriptures that were undeniable to pointing to what she experienced.
So we want people in general… Now, this is, of course, BIPOC focus, but the message is for everyone. Your ancestors talk to you, period, in some form or fashion. So we need to stop looking for the burning bush. You know, Moses, everyone said the burning bush experience, you know, but the bush may have been burning because it was really hot out there, and that was the way that God, universe, whomever, however your faith is, got him to be sparked to notice something and see something with the bush burning, because that’s what universe God ancestors knew would catch his attention.
Bianca Schulze: Yeah. Nyasha and I have a fellow friend that was in our critique group, author-to-be, and she asked the question of Nyasha, “Can anybody speak to their ancestors?” And I loved Nyasha’s answer. I can’t remember it verbatim, but yes. And basically, you’ve already been talking to your ancestors. You just haven’t been in tune with it. Is that fair to say?
Kenda Bell-Spruill: Yes. And you can ask for the cultivated ones, you know, the wise ones, because some, we may not need their advice. You know, we may have ancestors that were bad with handling their money. We may have ancestors that weren’t the most faithful. They may have had a good heart, but not very wise. So you give love to all the ancestors that paved the way for you to be here. But when you’re looking for guidance, you… You ask for the wise women that were wives. Guide me on how not to argue with my husband. Wise business owners. If you had the opportunities that I have right now, what wisdom can you give me to go further? That’s how I talk to them.
Nyasha Williams: And I would say, you know, in continuing what you’re saying, I was like, for example, I was like, we have my husband’s grandpa on the wall, and he… They energetically feel very similar, like… And I know that they spent a lot of time when he was down here together, so I definitely feel their connection. So sometimes when I’m struggling to understand my husband or I’m having difficulties or, you know, we have… We’re not seeing eye to eye in that moment. He is a great ancestor for me to turn to when I’m trying to understand my husband or want help with that.
And so, yeah, like my mother-in-law said, not everybody… We know that there are ancestors who… there may be ancestors we don’t want to work with because, you know, they may not be in alignment with what we’re trying to do now or the soul mission we have now or what we’re trying to evolve into now, but there’s always somebody who’s there, and not all, I don’t think you should throw the baby out with the bathwater. Kind of like, you know, not throwing everything out. ‘Cause there’s definitely… There’s ancestors who might not have been great with money, but they’re good at something else that you may need. And so you can turn to whoever in relation to what you may need guidance or help around.
And then for people who don’t know who their ancestors are, I always say, like, how I started was just saying, ancestors known and unknown, who all want the best for me towards my highest good and with ease. Let’s work together. Let’s build the relationship. And you just speak this, and eventually you will hear them. And I, again, I always say, when you open that space, you can start with tools. Pulling a card today, there’s lots of different ways to sit in communion with your ancestors and talk to them.
Bianca Schulze: Yeah. So, well, let’s talk about dreams right now, because we’ve sort of tiptoed around dreams a little bit, and they play a really meaningful role in the story. So with Dayo’s dream of a yellow bird weaving throughout the book, can you share more about the significance of dreams and symbolism in African diasporic spiritual practices?
Nyasha Williams: So I will say that I have a lot of dreams that I don’t understand, and that can be hard. And I turn to my mother-in-law a lot. I have, like, two people that I feel like are pretty good at breaking down dreams and analyzing dreams. And it’s oftentimes a part of black culture. When you read about dreaming, you dream about black culture. Talking with family about your dreams and sitting in communion, especially in the morning. What did you dream, what it was about? That is, a lot of times, very traditional practice that has been done for a long time.
But we thought it would be really beautiful inside of Saturday Magic: A Hoodoo Story of giving Dayo that space and having her ancestors kind of show her what that could mean. So giving her that autonomy and showing her that she also has this gift to analyze and figure things out on her own and that, you know, her ancestors are there to support and guide her in that understanding. But, yes, dreaming is a huge part of the culture. I was like, I think that some people… I feel like I hear the phrase, “oh, it’s just a dream.” Right? That’s something that people will say. Even if it’s… Especially if it’s, like, a scary dream or a nightmare or night terror, people will say that.
But for us, for the culture, a lot of times we say that, no, there’s meaning to these things. And I think we’re not alone in that. A lot of indigenous communities, and I use indigenous as a global term because we know there’s indigenous everywhere in the world. But BIPOC, especially BIPOC, indigenous cultures, I feel like they pay a lot of attention to their dreams and the significance behind them. And it’s a lot of breaking down and analyzing that, because the understanding of dreams takes time. I don’t think it’s an instant. I know what everything means. It’s like, a lot of times it’s this learning curve you’re on or this, like, growing curve of gaining better understanding about what is coming forth for you, what message is being relayed, what is the guidance you are receiving in this moment, or what are you being warned about?
You know, that, like, you know, it’s funny because I think people stereotypically, especially through the Bible, consider snakes bad. I love snakes. Snakes are signs of transformation. That’s whether I put them on my death card in my tarot deck, because snakes are… They’re ever evolving, right? They’re shedding that skin, and we do that, too, in so many different ways. When we change jobs, when we move homes, there’s always these cycles of death we’re going through, whether we are conscious of it or not. But if you dream of a snake in a dream, you have to kind of break down. Was it trying to attack you? Was it hidden? Was it a snake that was, like, really sweet and just building a relationship with you and connecting with you?
So you have to sit and pay attention to the colors. You got to pay attention to, like, what the interaction was like in the dream and the vibes. And sometimes it’s hard to remember. So there’s a lot of ritual, too, around helping you remember your dreams. So I know that, like, putting a clear bowl of water under your bed can help, putting mugwort under your pillow. So there’s a lot of different ways that we can strengthen our dreaming and our understanding in dreams and remembering them, because I know a lot of people struggle with even remembering what their dreams are like.
Bianca Schulze: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Now, I don’t know. I mean, I don’t know if we want to do a spoiler, so I’m going to leave it up to you. But the yellow bird has a lovely meaning in Dayo’s dream. Do we want to go there, or do we want to leave it for readers to stumble upon the meaning for themselves?
Kenda Bell-Spruill: It’s up to Nyasha. What do you think?
Nyasha Williams: I think we should leave it for readers to figure out. Yeah. But I will say that I use the Internet a lot in relation to understanding about certain things in dreams. I use it, obviously, for looking up angel numbers that are not your stereotypical ones, because obviously, the ones that are the three numbers, repetitive, I feel like you start picking up and remembering what those mean. Like, 444, you know, whatever.
What I didn’t realize was the beginning of my spiritual walk is, like, all numbers are angel numbers. So, like, if you see 1437, that’s if it caught your eye and you, like, really focused on it, go plug that in, type in angel number, and get a better understanding of what it’s… What’s trying to be related to you. Or if you see a specific number that keeps repeating. I think people just get so caught up on the, like, repetitive numbers, which… Those are louder, but there are other, like, other numbers that are angel numbers as well.
And then, you know, again, in relation to, I don’t know, I could have a dream about, like, iguanas or whatever, and I just don’t know what that means. Google’s our friend right now. Just google it and try and figure out, yeah, I always type in, like, whatever it is and then spiritual meaning to get some better understanding of what it means. But again, not all things mean the same thing in every spiritual culture. So you kind of also have to sit with that intuitive strength of, what does it mean to you? How are you perceiving it?
Kenda Bell-Spruill: And maybe because I’m getting older now, so I’m kind of like, I want us to evolve to feel it and be confident in what feels true to us. What is the DNA? What is the energy? Like, affirming, like, you know, not based on past knowledge or past fear of our… Like, this… But it’s like a combination of wisdom, basically. You know, that’s all I’m saying. You can google certain things, and you might see, like, if you see a certain, like, mice, is something like people, like, “oh, my God, a mice. Disgusting.” You know, so you’re thinking someone’s after you, your house is there, all these different things, which it could mean that, but it also can mean being busy, industrious, finding a way out of no way, looking, and being diligent in finding the source of what you need.
You know, it’s all in how you frame it. And whenever you get whatever, you realize at that moment is not destiny. That means that at that moment in time, in that timeline where you are in that moment, that’s what that means. So now, since you have the knowledge, you can shift that nothing is set in stone. Nothing. And if you work with your ancestors as well, they’ll give you the wisdom, because when they were living, they didn’t think that we would all be sitting here talking together. They wished it. They imagined it, but it wasn’t possible. It wasn’t seem possible, but their prayers, their work have us here.
Nyasha Williams: That’s too funny. I have a dreaming story. So I had a friend when I taught kindergarten when I was in Baltimore, and she… We were very close. We were… She really also was a huge, pivotal part of me understanding my blackness and just kind of understanding what it means to be black in this country. And she was pivotal and all of that. We both taught kindergarten together. She did not… She was very Christian, so very to the church. But I… You know, one area for her that was very prevalent, even within the church was dreaming. She had very prolific dreams, dreams that she understood and could see things coming.
An example would be she would dream of spiders. She knew money was coming, and so she had these very interesting ways about things. And then we all know the one that if you dream about fish, we know that there’s apparently someone who is pregnant in this space, or there’s someone who is going to be pregnant. And so I remember when I first started talking to my husband, because I had heard so many stories about her dreams and her gift in this way. I said, can you dream for me? And tell me, if you ask for… She asks God to send her a dream and give her a message. So I asked her to do this for my husband and I, but obviously not my husband at that time, but my partner at that time. And she said, “Yeah, absolutely, I’ll do it. I’ll see how it’s…”
And it’s not instant. Sometimes it takes a couple nights for it to come through. But she was like, “Yeah, absolutely. I’ll do this for you.” So she starts… So she goes off and she says she asked God to give her a sign, give her a dream. So she comes back to me a couple days later at school. Well, obviously we school together. But the day she had the dream, she came to me and she said, “I had this dream, and it honestly scared me at first, but I sat with it more and I had a better understanding around it. And I think you may, too.” And so she said she had this dream of a bathtub, and she had this dream of, like, two cockroaches coming out of this bathtub and being together. And she said at first she felt really awkward about it because she’s like, “Oh, gosh, cockroaches.” And that’s so stressful and yuck. And she’s like, water bugs are not her thing. Like, that’s just yuck. But then she said she thought about it in relation to a relationship, and she’s like, cockroaches live outlive everything. Like, they make it through it all right. Like, they persevere. They’re able to withstand anything sent their way.
Bianca Schulze: Even a nuclear bomb.
Nyasha Williams: Exactly. I’ve been watching Fallout with my husband, so, yes. So that’s why she said she perceived it that way. And so that was my… That was the dream she relayed to me. And so dreaming is always very, very interesting. I feel like I’ve definitely been warned about people in dreams. I have been guided towards certain people. There’s really interesting space in relation to dreams and the way that people move with their dreams and what we can learn of ourselves and others through dreaming.
Bianca Schulze: Okay, so we definitely have to talk about Sawyer Cloud’s stunning illustrations which bring the story and the characters to life so beautifully. And we talked about her in the last time we got together, Nyasha. But I want to know, do you both have any favorite spreads or visual moments from the book? Like, I want to know which illustrations resonate with you most and why.
Kenda Bell-Spruill: Oh, okay. Well, for me, I’m sorry. First of all, Sawyer Cloud, every time that anyone grabs the book, they’re like, “Oh, my God, the images are amazing.” So, Sawyer, we appreciate you for bringing our book to life in such a beautiful and colorful way. I just cannot say that enough.
Secondly, we were given a list of people to choose, and we went through people, and hers caught my eye amongst others. And when my daughter told me that she had worked with her and that she was self-taught, then I said, we have to allow the ancestors’ gifts that were activated in her to be seen. That’s a must. Not saying that there aren’t others that are not qualified to do that, but my spirit, my ancestors said, let’s work with this one for those two types of reasons.
And I think one of my favorite scenes is how she got the skylight over top of them when they are doing something. I don’t want to give the story away, but I love the way that she captured the, the bird and the skylight looking down on them. It gives different aspects of what that particular page could mean.
Bianca Schulze: Yeah. Yeah. I love that illustration, too. What about you, Nyasha?
Nyasha Williams: Yeah, I love Sawyer. I was like, I’m so lucky she’s chosen to work with me three times. I think one of my favorite things about Sawyer is, like, I had Sawyer… I interviewed her for my blog. So if you are curious to know more about Sawyer and just get a better understanding of who she is as a creative, I have a, on my website, on my blog, there’s an interview with her, but she voiced that she doesn’t take any work that is political or spiritual. And I love that she does not see what I do in that way, because I feel like when we think about banned books, we think about those kinds of things. I was like, I think that there are people who… I mean, when I’m talking about anti-racism, like we talked about the last time, and et cetera, et cetera, people could see my books in specific lights. And I love that she does not see it that way. She just sees it as books that need to be existing in the world for families and kids and all the things. So I love Sawyer.
And Sawyer just has this really beautiful way of capturing family, really beautiful way of capturing, just, like, the colors. I just… The work is so good. It’s like I was looking for someone who gives me the similar energy of Studio Ghibli. Like, I really love that work, and her work is really whimsical. And so that really comes forth for me, because Sawyer believes in magic. She’s all about the magic life. When you look at her, like, stories and her Instagram, like, a lot of, she’s very much in magical spaces and reading magical things. And right now, she’s obsessed with Bridgerton and, like, all the dresses and all that. So, you know, she likes to live in a lot of the fantasy and the magic, and I feel like that comes forth in her art.
I will say my mother-love’s page is one of my favorites, too. I really love the last dining room because I had that space when I lived in Paris, they had a dining room that was completely glass. And I was like, I want this in this book. I was like, it was so magical, especially when it rained, it was just so cool to be in that space, and it just sounded so awesome. And so I really wanted that to come forth. And I feel like she did that beautifully. And then I think the other thing is, people might notice this… People might not notice this, but Anaya’s family, so Dayo’s best friend’s, the parents, the two… Anaya has two moms, and it’s not screamed and shouted, and it’s not super loud. Right. It’s not the central role of the book, but I think it’s beautiful how Sawyer put in their wedding photo in one of the… In one of the images. And so I thought that was really beautiful because it just showcased that and allowed that to be. But it also didn’t, like, it wasn’t like a main focus in the story, but it’s present and it’s important, you know? And so I loved her, like, just having such a natural, beautiful way of putting that into the story.
Bianca Schulze: Yeah, yeah. She did an amazing job. So what does it mean to both of you to add this story to the canon of children’s literature, especially in terms of expanding the representation of black characters and African spiritual practices? And do you hope Saturday Magic: A Hoodoo Story can foster pride and connection to ancestral roots for young black readers? Kenda, do you want to go, or… It looked like, Nyasha, you were ready.
Nyasha Williams: Yeah, I absolutely do. I think my mother-in-love, like I said, we sit in talking about, is shown in magic realism, who’s represented, who is being honored in those practices. And right now, it’s really not black people. The black community is not seen in that way. We’re not honored in that way. I feel like everyone got duped with that Magical Negro movie. Like, everyone got so excited about that film. There are people who said they watched it three times and they walked out and they were like, I watched it three times because I wasn’t sure if I wasn’t understanding the plot. And so I feel like we are asking and screaming and, like asking for our magical beings and selves to be shown. And thankfully, there are some people writing things, there are some beautiful books, but it’s mostly YA. I feel like is where we’re getting it, right? So we’re missing it in picture books and we’re missing it in…
I would say, like, if we’re looking at animation and film, we’re not seeing it there either. I was like, Encanto. I was like, that house… I watch that movie probably once a month because it just gives to my soul. I’m like, singing every song. I was like, I am obsessed with all the aspects. The candle, you know, we work with so many candles in our practice, and it’s just so beautiful how they brought that all to life. And we are still waiting for our black Pixar Disney film that is going to be giving to our souls in that same way. I was like, everything they’ve done so far for the black community has just not been it. It’s an absolute no on Wish. It’s an absolute no on Princess and the Frog. It’s an absolute no on Soul. I am ready for something that is actually going to be truly representative and filling for the community.
And so that, to me, I hope that Saturday Magic: A Hoodoo Story sparks people in, like, Saturday Magic: A Hoodoo Story. I speak this over Saturday Magic: A Hoodoo Story. I speak this over every single one of my books and any of my work is that I hope that it is a catalyst towards people creating more in that realm. I hope that it is a catalyst towards creativity, inspiration, decolonizing, indigenizing, liberation. I really want you to critique my work. Please critique my work. I know that I didn’t hit every point. I know I don’t mean everything, but I hope you see my work as this stepping stone towards what can be.
Bianca Schulze: That was an amazing, passionate answer. I loved it. Kenda, do you want to add anything?
Kenda Bell-Spruill: Well, yeah, I guess. I mean, she said it. She said it for me. Being 53 going on 54 in a couple of weeks, I did not really see any images of magical black children, let alone superheroes. Really, I had to imagine myself with those things in this body, but I was not actually given the images of those things. And so I do think that with this book, I’m hoping that children at a younger age can start seeing how magical they are. Our children are told that they are magical. They are told that we’re kings and queens, and… But we’re also not shown that we also have this magical component that is active in all of us.
And I’m hoping, again, I think the closest that we got was Black Panther that showed the ancestral plane and the rituals, but they left, but they centered it in Africa, which, again, cuts us away from that identity. It makes it feel as though we’re co-opting something that is still not ours. And yet we have carried those things over to this continent hundreds of years ago and created our own adaptations that have kept people from dying, that have hid people that were on the run, you know, these different aspects of the rituals that were created here. We still have a shame attached to it. And I think that it’s really hindering the healing that this country needs, not just for black people, but for the nation as a whole, because the ancestors are not being acknowledged, just the acknowledgement alone. And so I hope that this book ignites it. To be seen, to be felt, and to be creatively done colorfully.
Encanto… And Encanto is a beautiful film, but it saddens me that there’s all these beautiful children that can see Cinderella or all these different things. And when they see a brown princess, she has to deal with a half human thing for the majority of the film. And when they talk about anything that is mystical, it’s kind of like they’re the boogeyman and they’re bad. And, you know, all of these things, which can be an aspect, even though that’s the voodoo. I mean, it’s so much… Yeah, it’s so much involved with that that the disrespect of BIPOC people is co-opted by us because we have a certain shame about it, I think. And we need to honor the intellect that we have because we are a very intellectual people, we are very smart people. We are organized people. We can make something out of nothing because of that strong constitution of spirituality that we are not tapping into.
Bianca Schulze: That was super enlightening for me. I was just, like, lost in everything you were saying, and I can’t wait to… When I get to edit this, to relisten to what both of you have been saying. I never even thought of The Princess and the Frog because of my own background as how it could be an issue. So, yeah, I really… That was meaningful to me to hear that.
Nyasha Williams: So, yeah, the two Disney films, they’ve given us with Soul and Princess and the Frog, both of them… The black character is not the black character for most of the film. Like, you are not in your body. It’s like, what does that even mean? Like, why would you do that? And it’s like, again, she wasn’t born a princess. She was married into princessship. So it’s like, you’re also giving that black people can’t inherently be royalty. They have to marry into that. You know, there’s a lot of layers. You’ve got her marrying a white prince. Like, it’s giving, you know, the little mermaid. It’s like, we’ve changed the black mermaid, but everything else is interesting when you look at all the layers.
Kenda Bell-Spruill: Yeah, yeah. Don’t even talk about Ariel having to give up her voice to be married. But we’re not going to change the conversation any further, you know? So what I’m saying is, while we’re talking about this, from a very centered space… This affects everyone in some fashion or another, for sure.
Nyasha Williams: And it’s like, again, everything is… There’s layers in everything, right? Like, there are things that are important to be seen. Like, I was like, I like to critique these things because I think there’s magic in some things. Like, it’s like, wow. Oh, this is great. But then there’s also parts that I’m like, this was problematic. I was like, I’ve sat with Encanto about that. Encanto is great, but there’s also things that need to be addressed. And so you can look at these layers within anything. But I think that it’s important to do those critiques and think about all those aspects because there are a lot of gaps, there’s a lot of things missing. And I think that that is when I’m writing and creating, I’m trying to fill those gaps and have other people see that void with me and hopefully step into that void so that we have this expansion within that in literature and media.
Bianca Schulze: Yeah. I want to give you a little moment, Nyasha, to share a little bit about your publishing company, Fire + Honey Press. And also, I just want people to know how they can support your vision. So what do you want listeners to know about your new press?
Nyasha Williams: Yes, I am building a publishing house, and it’s called Fire and Honey Press. And I really, as much as I honor all of my roots in getting into publishing, especially traditional pub, where I am now. So I started off on a self-publishing journey. I, you know, my illustrations went viral from my first book. That got me my literary agents, which is kind of unheard of. I’ve had a very untraditional walk in the publishing world. But within all of that, I still see gaps. Like, I’m, you know, 16 products in pieces in. And I’m like, there’s so many room for so many more stories. And when it comes to traditional pub, the honest truth and reality is that they are playing it safe. Right? They do it to what they know is going to sell. It’s oftentimes about the bottom line and finances, and this is true of literature and media. Right now, they’re saying that, you know, a lot of these animation studios who have been trying, they say new things, like Elemental and Red and Luca.
In these other films that they were trying, they’re saying that the numbers didn’t equate, and they’re going to go back to creating sequels. This is why we’re getting Inside Out 2. And they’re going back to what’s safe. They know brought in money. They want to go back. And it’s a shame because, first of all, a lot of those new stories are written by BIPOC or diverse creators. So that’s disheartening. And I think we saw in 2020 this leap of books by black authors and BIPOC authors kind of being picked up. But already in 2024, those numbers have gone down. And so I am here to provide a different space, and I’m not the only one. There’s lots of people who are going to be doing lots of different things in relation to this. But for me, I want to take a risk on stories that are trying to create change, that are trying to move people towards liberation, that are allowing people to see things they may not be seen.
My publishing company will be a digital published company. There will be small scale print batches, but it’s mostly digital. And so you will be able to… Any project that comes through the door will be in three formats. So it will be a visual format, so that’s watching a movie, so a video format animated. So there’ll be this video format. There is going to be an audio format, and then there’s going to be a written format like an ebook. And there’s many reasons for this. One is paying honor to our culture. I feel like, I think about the oral traditions and the oral language of the BIPOC community and our community. I sit with how that hasn’t been honored in the ways that it should be, in the fact that it hasn’t. And again, when we think about hoodoo, we think about our cultural traditions, a lot of that knowledge is passed orally. And, you know, the western world colonization, white supremacy decided to say written is a more formal and correct and right and better way of relaying information or passing down information or valid way of information. And I think that that is a huge problem that I think harmed BIPOC communities.
Nyasha Williams: I think about this in the sense of, like, when you think about BIPOC communities starting a lot of their origins, especially ancestrally, in oral traditions, it’s like people should be able to do tests orally. I feel like this, to me, is similar to, like, we all have different love languages, we all learn different ways. And I feel like the expansion of that would just be so healing to our world. And so for me, I hope Fire and Honey Press is this space where anybody who wants to engage in my projects are able to access them in the ways that feel good to their body. Feel good to their soul, feel good to them. I hope that it ignites through that fire and sparks inspiration, creativity, the belief in beyond what currently exists. Because we know our systems are hard and heavy and there’s a lot happening right now.
And that honey is just, we do all of this in abundance, in community. Honey is abundance created in community. And so we are working together in community to create and nourish a space that is going to allow transformation. And so that is really what Fire and Honey Press is about. I’m currently getting funding for that, and I’m starting to build the website. I’m starting to pick the first projects that are going to go through Fire and Honey Press. And so if you want to follow that story, please subscribe to my substack. Follow me on my website, my Instagram, because as things develop, they will be coming forth in there. But I am really trying to build a place for transformative change in literature and media.
Bianca Schulze: Just for listeners, I’m going to put Nyasha’s substack link in the show notes. And we’ve talked about some really cool stuff today. So, you know, if there’s something that really piqued your interest and you want to know more, check the show notes, because there might be a link to that in there, too. Well, as we wrap up our conversation, Kenda, let’s start with you. What would you want it to be if listeners were to take away just one thing from our chat today? What would you want that to be?
Kenda Bell-Spruill: You are your ancestors’ wildest dreams. Live your life as beautifully and powerfully as you can. That’s the first step to ancestor veneration.
Bianca Schulze: Got chills on that. Nyasha, how about you? One thing that you want to leave everybody with today.
Nyasha Williams: Oh, one thing. Yeah. I think, again, your ancestors want to connect with you. They want to build with you. They want to have an ongoing, active relationship with you. So make space for that. I think that one of the ways that that came through with us is through the recipe in the book. There’s the recipe of the watermelon and orange salad, and that came through ancestrally. It was an ancestral download. As we talk, my mother-in-love is very enlightened to receive recipes from the ancestors. So she gets a lot of recipe downloads. Not all of them are edible, but there’s lots of different recipes she receives that are giving to us as a people and that are helpful.
Like, oftentimes, if there’s something going on in our lives that we need, sometimes it’s a bath, a new spiritual bath. She’ll learn and she’ll get a recipe. But the salad was a recipe download, and it fits the book so beautifully in so many ways. It honors the ancestors. I just did a whole discussion and post on my substack around the racist tropes around watermelons, how that existed, how that came forth. And so if you don’t know that, please make space for that and just have a better understanding of how important and powerful it is for black people to step into eating watermelon and embracing watermelon and stepping back into what that was for our ancestors and what it stands for. You know, honey, you know, when we look at honey, we look at cinnamon. And those are most prevalent in the salad.
If you look in the book and you don’t know about the deities, Yemaya or Oshun, they are highlighted and honored through that salad as well. They’re present because when we give offerings to Yemaya, we often give watermelon, Oshun, we give our oranges, our honey, our cinnamon. And so there’s all these beautiful ways that the salad just all came through in that. And then on top of the fact that is a healthy salad, it is nurturing and healing. And so it’s got this both, like, very physical health aspects of the salad, but it’s also got this beautiful spiritual element and layers within the salad of just how important it is and how it comes through. And so recipes, to me, are a beautiful way of connecting with those who have passed on. And so I would say, go pull out that old recipe book or roll out those recipes that someone who may have been close to you may have passed down. That is a beautiful way to start building that relationship and start building that connection with your ancestors and connecting even your family, your kids, your community with your ancestors is through food.
Bianca Schulze: Yes. And I’m, like, kicking myself that I hadn’t brought up the watermelon salad because the first round of reading this book, when the Grandma Rose’s watermelon and orange salad came up, I was like, please let this recipe be in the back. Please let it be in the back. And so I, like, was so excited when I saw it in the back. So thank you for making sure we talked about that amazing watermelon and orange recipe, and it’s in the back and everybody should go try it. And Nyasha has some great videos on Instagram, and Kenda does, too. And that watermelon salad Instagram reel that you just put out, Nyasha, was mesmerizing.
Well, I am going to leave everybody with these notes. So it’s clear to me that this beautiful and powerful book has the potential to inspire, educate, and validate so many people’s experiences and spirituality. So thank you both so much for sharing your wisdom, personal stories, and creative process with us today, because Saturday Magic: A Hoodoo Story is truly a gift to the world of children’s literature and to all the readers who will connect with its magic. So thank you so much.
Nyasha Williams: Thank you. And thank you for having us.
Kenda Bell-Spruill: Thank you.
Show Notes
Nyasha Williams grew up living intermittently between the United States and South Africa. She pursues social justice, decolonizing work, and creating for her community full-time. She lives in Colorado with her husband.
Kenda Bell-Spruill is a highly-esteemed lifestyle coach who empowers women to tap into their personal magic through joy. Being able to share ways to connect with ancestral wisdom through children’s literature is a wonderful addition to her gumbo of gifts to share with the world.
Order Copies: Saturday Magic on Amazon and Bookshop.org.
Resources:
- Visit Nyasha Williams online: https://www.nyashawilliams.online
- Visit Kenda Bell online: https://pensight.com/x/kendabell
- Subscribe to Nyasha’s Substack: https://nyashawilliams.substack.com/
- Support Nyasha’s vision for Fire + Honey Press: https://www.gofundme.com/f/revolutionizing-publishing-fire-honey-press
- How Watermelons Became a Racist Trope: https://nyashawilliams.substack.com/p/how-watermelons-became-a-racist-trope
- Grandma Rose’s Watermelon Salad: https://nyashawilliams.substack.com/p/grandma-roses-watermelon-salad
Thank you for listening to the Growing Readers Podcast episode Saturday Magic: Celebrating Ancestral Wisdom and Black Spirituality in Children’s Literature with Nyasha Williams and Kenda Bell-Spruill. For the latest episodes from The Growing Readers Podcast, Subscribe or Follow Now.
